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Amra 's Armchair Anecdotes
Welcome to Amra’s Armchair Anecdotes! I’m Amra Pajalić—
writer, teacher, and storyteller. Pull up a chair, and let’s dive into
stories about writing, life, and lessons learned—sharing wisdom
from my armchair to yours.
Amra 's Armchair Anecdotes
Dancing Through Life's Transitions: A conversation with Tania Segura
Tania shares her journey from mother of three to co-founder of Melbourne's vibrant Cuban dance crew Rakata, exploring how a single dance class at age 30 completely transformed her life path.
• Beginning dance at 30 and discovering that Cuban salsa allowed her to flourish without classical training
• Transferring teaching skills from classroom to dance floor by breaking complex movements into simple steps
• Creating a dance curriculum focused on skills and expression rather than specific genres
• Learning to recognise and assert your worth in creative industries
• Honouring the cultural origins and storytelling aspects of Cuban dance
• Being signed by a modelling agency at age 50 after applying on impulse
• Appearing on SBS Insight's 50th anniversary special through a Facebook application
• Embracing midlife transitions and menopause as an opportunity for self-prioritisation
• Finding joy in trying new things without fear of failure
• The importance of creative expression and play as essential human activities
Visit amrapajalic.com/podcast for free episode handouts.
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. I'm Amra Payalich, writer, teacher and storyteller. Pull up a chair and let's dive into stories about writing life and lessons learned, sharing wisdom from my armchair to yours. You can find the episode show notes, your free episode handouts and my how-to guides at amrahpayalichcom slash podcast. And now it's time to dive in. Welcome to Amrah's Armchair Anecdotes. Today I'm interviewing Tanya, who is a passionate educator and co-founder of Rakata, melbourne's vibrant Cuban dance crew. With a teaching career spanning nearly three decades, she blends her expertise in education with her love of Cuban salsa and reggaeton. Alongside her partner, jean, she has performed at major Latin dance festivals in Australia and New Zealand. She's trained with renowned Cuban artists, both locally and in Cuba. She brings an inclusive, high energy workshops to schools and communities, empowering dancers of all levels, and her mission is to honor Cuban tradition while infusing it with creativity, joy and a fierce love of dance. So welcome, tanya, thank you.
Tania Segura:What an introduction. I know.
Amra Pajalic:It's always interesting when someone does an introduction.
Tania Segura:You're like oh, that's me. I sound amazing, yes, when I get that very often in life, do we?
Amra Pajalic:no wait, we just walk into a classroom and we're like I am so and so no I'm doing a. Thing but yeah so having an introduction like yes, um. So your life has been marked by great um, transition and pivots. When you were 30 old, you were a mother to three young children and you decided to go to a dance class. So how did this decision change your life?
Tania Segura:Well, at the time it was the only thing that I was doing for myself and I thought an hour a week sounded amazing, away from the kids and the husband and just to do something for myself, the husband, and just to do something for myself. It has started a whole new path for me, because from that one dance class I became a performer with that dance crew.
Tania Segura:I met other dancers and other dance teachers. I then started assisting, and I was already a teacher at that stage. So then I was asked to teach classes. I met my now husband.
Tania Segura:We've been together for almost 17 years and we've had dance schools at companies, performance crews all of it together yeah, I just love that, where you're like a mother and feeling overwhelmed with all of that and just searching for a part of yourself and you just do this one thing just this one dance class and I and I was 30 and I was a mother of three and I sort of had the idea that if you were going to be a dancer any sort of you know, be any good at it, you had to start when you were three and you had to do ballet and classical and then have a lifetime. But I found Cuban salsa and Cuban salsa is a street dance, it's very heavily into being a cultural dance, not a ballroom dance, and it was all in and also I love the fact that you were a teacher and so you just had that skill where you were able to translate dancing and teaching dancing.
Amra Pajalic:So it wasn't very long where you were doing the dance lessons, where you were sort of tapped on the shoulder and, yeah, um asked to start doing that yeah, and I think the skills of teaching can be transferred to anything.
Tania Segura:I wasn't teaching dance. I was an art teacher, a literacy teacher. Um, I think I was still a primary school teacher. Yes, I was still a primary school teacher at that stage and so I was teaching science and humanities and maths and all sorts of things that weren't really in my bag but if you know how to teach.
Tania Segura:It's about making complex things less abstract, making them simple one step at a time, and if I knew how to do a dance step, then I could teach someone else how to do it yeah, and then you transitioned from primary school teaching to high school teaching and you became a high school dance teacher.
Tania Segura:Yes, yes, and so I I didn't have any formal training. I um was asked to do a vet training course because I couldn't teach vce dance, but I could teach vet dance and that was a really quick course. I think I can't remember maybe 12 hours of face-to-face, but it was all about getting what I had done in practice and using those hours up against what I hadn't done in academia. And when I think one of the hours I couldn't attend because I was teaching at the Johnson Street Latin Fiesta and they were like, well, that'll count as hours.
Amra Pajalic:Yes.
Tania Segura:And so, yeah, that was great, and I don't think there was a dance curriculum there at the school. I wrote it for seven, eight and nine, pushed to get it to year 10 for a long time and beyond, but there just wasn't the physical space in the performing arts. There were only 30 periods available and sharing that with drama meant that we couldn't put another five hours of year 10 dance on the grid.
Amra Pajalic:Yeah, I just love how you know you're a teacher. But then whatever we have outside of that world we can also bring in, and we can bring in that passion and those connections.
Tania Segura:Yeah, and I think that happens a lot, even with professional learning. You something and you bring it in. You see, if it works, you keep it, if it doesn't work, you let it go. But I think being a teacher I mean anyone really can learn the skills.
Amra Pajalic:But it's about um your passion and your interest and how much you want to share yeah, I remember one of the first early years of teaching and one of my students, um, was like you know, miss, you're an expert.
Amra Pajalic:And I, I sort of had this moment where I was like I'm, I'm an expert, I'm, I'm an expert in this, um, and then they were like, yeah, the way that you bring the passion and the way that you talk about it and the way that you and I was like, oh my gosh, I, I really am, because you know, as a professional writer and then as a teacher of English, the way I break it down and that's the same with you as a dancer and then a dance teacher the way that you know to break it down, the way that you know to use the terminology to make it accessible, to build the confidence and to sort of focus on trying to get people to enjoy and find it.
Amra Pajalic:And even now, when I do workshops, I'm just so like people get blown away by the way that I put in bed grammar, in the writing of it, which is fascinating to me because I wasn't taught grammar in school. Yes, but through becoming a teacher, I've really learned how to deconstruct language and how to focus on language and focus on structure. So it's just really interesting the skills that that you learn and the way that you know definitely the way you shift and you change and I also think, like I said, I've never been classically trained.
Tania Segura:I don't have contemporary, I don't have ballet, I don't have any of those. What I have is street, and what I have is latin and very niche cuban. And so the dance program wasn't built around genre, it was built around skills. Rhythm is rhythm, balance is balance, and so the kids who I, I could model, and I think that's something that we do as teachers, and I said to the kids I'm never going to ask you to do something that I won't do myself. And so if a kid wanted to show balance through ballet, they could. If they wanted to show it through break dancing, they could. If they wanted to show it through something a little more interpretive, then that was okay. And so the program was really built around skills and expression.
Amra Pajalic:Yeah, yeah, and I think that's the thing you sort of make, it that accessible.
Tania Segura:Differentiated.
Amra Pajalic:Oh, differentiation, oh my gosh. We do like a whole episode on that. I have a lot to say on that. So you and your partner, jean, have won the 2024 second place professional division at Australian Rueda Championships the 2015 second place professional division, um 2015. So you've won a lot of competitions and, you know, competed professionally, um, but what have been? The highlights and what are the struggles in being a cuban dance instructor and choreographer?
Tania Segura:um, okay, so latin dancing is very broad. Um, cuban dancing is niche, and I'm going to try and explain this without talking for hours and hours as we can, as we can. So, basically, salsa is what people recognize as Cuban dance. Salsa originated in Cuba. Very basically, it was the meeting of Spanish rhythms and African drums. That's like the very basic way of explaining it.
Tania Segura:But there's years of history and it was only called salsa when it moved to the US, because salsa means a sauce. So it was a little mix of things. Called salsa when it moved to the us because salsa means a sauce, so it was a little mix of things. So I guess one of the struggles is that a lot of people recognize salsa as what they see on dancing with the stars, which is a ballroom style, and that was the standardization of what was coming out culturally from this little island, cuba and standardization often means bastardization, because what they're keeping is a moment in time and they say that this move will always be this move and this is how we say that it's done well, but culture is always evolving.
Tania Segura:So the way people dance salsa in Cuba in the 50s and then even in the 2000s and now the 220s, it's changing and evolving and so I guess one of the things that's difficult is to keep doing this thing that is evolving, to keep paying respects to the ancestors of where these dances come from and some people of where this dance has come from, and some people don't like to recognise that, and it means that we can often come across as righteous, and that is not what I want to do, because dance is inclusive. Everyone can dance, everyone is free to dance. I guess the difference is that I like to honour where it's come from and remember where it's come from and remember where it's come from, and I don't dance ballroom and I don't dance linear or LA styles. I dance Cuban and even though that is niche compared to all the other salsa styles, I'm happy to keep that, that style, and I'm happy to keep that honor to the culture what I love.
Amra Pajalic:When I talk to you about it, you actually talk about the storytelling aspect and the and the way that it's weaved in the culture and yes like really embedding um. What is the meaning of what you are dancing? Yes exactly what I was always struck by is that dancing is another way of storytelling yes, like you are actually dancing a story.
Tania Segura:Yes, yes, and dance comes from culture. Dance comes from somewhere. It's an expression of the music, an expression of the time, of the people, and so to have this thing where there's a little box around it and a move must always be done this way, like there's a saying that you dance to express, not to impress, and that's not my saying. That's a saying that's probably printed on a moon t-shirt somewhere, but I think you need to know what you're dancing and why, and then connect to it.
Tania Segura:So connecting to your body, the way your body moves, the way your partner's moving, the way the music is, what's happening at the party, or if it's on a performance, why are you putting these moves to this part of the music? What does it mean? It's not just about um the athleticism of it. So I think dancing can be a sport and in saying that we have entered competitions, but we've entered human competitions and every competition we've entered, we've entered with a means to win and we haven't come first but we've won second. So I'm not really into the sporting aspect of it.
Amra Pajalic:But in one sense, like, what I find fascinating is you'll do a day of teaching and you'll go and dance for three hours, but you'll just come back refreshed, yes, and just glowing and just so happy and body tired.
Tania Segura:Yes, but body tired is not the same as mentally tired. No and um, when we were running our dance school in the covid dark years, people said why don't you just, uh, do classes online, which a lot of people were doing? I couldn't at that point, because being a teacher six hours online already doing that remote teaching and then running remote classes, that was stealing the joy out of it, and so so we closed our school at that point, yeah I the dark times right well, having said that, now, um, doing delivering writing courses, um, I'm doing it a lot more online and I'm finding it really great because it's so much more accessible in terms of people from anywhere.
Amra Pajalic:And even I just did one in the heart of a Melbourne winter and I was so thankful because I was like, oh my gosh, I thought of leaving the house and I don't think anybody would have left the house, so it was there's been some bonuses in that way, and I guess there's enough time passed now that you're not stuck in that all day long.
Amra Pajalic:And also, being a teacher, I know how I have to bring the energy. Like you have to bring the energy if you're doing it in person, you have to bring the energy if you're doing it online. More, probably More yeah because I finish and I'm like sweaty, just completely covered in sweat during the two-hour workshop that I delivered, because you really do need to connect and you really need to like bring people in and get them to feel it yeah, so yeah pros and cons, now we can appreciate those.
Amra Pajalic:So yeah, pros and cons, now we can appreciate those. So, as director of Rakata, you are running your own dance studio with Jean, who's your partner in dance and life. What are some lessons that you have learned in running a business?
Tania Segura:Okay.
Amra Pajalic:Your business is difficult, you're actually dealing with dance crews and with people. Yes, politics and like you know, with me as an author, I'm like I'll just with dance crews and with people and politics. Like you know, with me as an author I'm like I'll just do my thing and then I'll leave. You know, I run workshops and stuff, but it's different, like you've actually got to work with people.
Tania Segura:I think one of the biggest lessons is that we need to recognise our own worth and our own value, especially when we were starting as new kids doing cuban dance. I have an italian background, gene has a filipino background. We don't look cuban, um, people were offering to hire us for no cots, like they'd say, things like the exposure will be great, um, which I understand. At the start we were taking gigs for not a lot of money, but then we sort of came across people who were doing it for free. So people would say we can hire you and pay you a hundred dollars, which is really not much, and we'd say, no, we're worth more than $100, we charge this much and we didn't want to undercut ourselves. But there were people who were willing to do it for free and then we were thinking, oh, we're missing out on business, we're missing out on taking connections, we're missing out because people are willing to undercut and that lesson was in learning. Well, if that's how they see their value, that's on them. We don't want to bring our price down because someone can't recognize what we do. And now that we've been doing it for a long time so I've been dancing for 20 years. Gene may be the same.
Tania Segura:You mentioned in my bio that we have mentors who are really cuban masters here in melbourne, that we've gone and trained in cuba as well. So, coming back to that lesson, we know what we can bring. We know the energy. We know even if it's a three minute performance that we're bringing that's hours of choreographing. Before you get to the choreography there's hours of listening to music. Then there's things like how can we qualify this dance class that we did with someone and we took that little bit that we're now putting in this choreography and we paid hundreds to do that. So that's been a big lesson, if the is right for us. We also do community gigs for a much lower price.
Tania Segura:So it's not just always about the money, but how much can we bring and what are we worth in our time? The other thing is that Jean and I are also life partners, not just dance partners, so looking after ourselves and each other has been really important. We've had lots of students who come and go and, of course, because we're only a little bit of their dance journey. But there were times when we were investing so much in the students, on keeping loyal students and making the students feel like family and becoming friends, but then understanding they also have to go and move on. So the lesson is je and I are rocketer, we will always look after ourselves and each other, and if it works to have students with us, then great. But there have been times when we haven't, and there's still the two of us and we can make it work I think that journey of learning your worth is such a big thing.
Amra Pajalic:When you are in the arts because everyone knows the value of arts and how important they are we immerse ourselves so much. You know, we love our tv shows, our podcasts, our movies, our music. This is all art. Writing, all art. Um, we appreciate it. It gives us that sense of worth and life. But when you are the producer, you're constantly fighting that battle.
Amra Pajalic:Yes, because we love it, yes, and we just want to do it, yes, but then people want to you know, almost exploit it, yes, and they want the benefit from it without remuneration. And you know, I'm sure, um, you know, I'm wondering if you can relate to this, where it's like you know what I want to write, I'll write for myself, that will make me happy, um, but if I'm putting it out there, I want to be paid for it.
Tania Segura:Yes, you know, because we can still do our practice, people who have a budget for other things but not a budget for entertainment how much?
Tania Segura:value are they putting on the entertainment? And I do lots of free things, like jean and I will make instagram reels. We don't get paid. We're doing that for the joy, we're doing that for connection. We're doing that. It's a really cool song, there's a really cool dance. There's a trend. Let's get on it. Let's have fun. I'm not asking for money for everything I do, but if someone is running an event and they're willing to pay for entertainment, well, that shows how much value they're putting on it and if they want to get someone for less, then they're free to get someone for less, and there's no hate on that.
Amra Pajalic:But we know how much we bring and I think that's the joy of having done things for a long time and having that sense of where we don't feel, simo, no, we don't need it.
Amra Pajalic:If someone else wants to do it, good on them that's right, um, but we are not going to do it without having that. You know, remuneration, um, and you know you get constantly like I get people reaching out on you know linkedin. I had one guy he's reaching out about writing something. I'm like I'm at the point now where I will start that conversation and I will say what is the remuneration? Yeah, um, because it takes a long time. You know, I have been tricked. I have had people present things as if they were a professional gig and then I realised afterwards I volunteered but I hadn't been asked to volunteer.
Tania Segura:I had actually been manipulated. Exactly, and it's different.
Tania Segura:Yes and if someone says this is a community gig, we're running it for a charity, we're not paying. Would you like to offer a dance class, a dance performance? Then we have the choice to say, yes, we'd like to support this charity or no, that's not for us, yeah, and so now, when people ask for performances especially around Christmas time, everyone wants a dance class or dances or something fun. They'll say this is our budget and I'll say for that much, you can get an hour dance instructor, but no performance.
Tania Segura:And they'll say, oh, we'd like a performance of 10 people. We're like, well, they need to be paid too, and so a 10-person performance costs this much. And they're like, oh, maybe we'll just have the instructor. Then we're like, oh, maybe we'll just have the instructor. Then, yeah, okay, well, as long as you know what your budget's worth. But if you don't say, then they don't know either.
Amra Pajalic:And you're also preparing them for the next time. Yes, and also, whenever you are offering a premium or a discount, you make that very, very clear. You put actually on the invoice um, or you know, you state yes, 10 discount, whatever you're offering. Because that needs to be clear, because then if they're going around and telling oh, we've got this great thing for this much money. No, no, no. You've got the special makes, right, you've got the local discount. Someone else won't get that.
Tania Segura:And we also do private dance lessons, so we have wedding couples coming through. If we don't know them, we charge. But If we don't know them, we charge. But I've never charged like my niece or my nephew for a dance lesson, like I want to be there. Yeah, see, we choreographed that and you looked awesome.
Amra Pajalic:Yeah, you know, that's the thing. When we're helping our friends, it's a different thing. Yes, yeah, so recently you marked a new chapter in your life when you were accepted as a model by a new agency.
Tania Segura:Now I want this story. This is the best story I have heard. Listen to this, okay. So I'm into choosing joy at the moment, going for things that I normally wouldn't go for.
Tania Segura:So on instagram, as I was scrolling, a photo studio said new, looking for a new model. What do we need? In a hundred words or less, what should we be looking for? I talked about old women. I talked about diversity. I talked about representation, put my submission in. They got back to me. I didn't win the campaign, oh well, we had a go. But they said we can bring you in for a photo shoot if you'd like and I thought, okay, why not? So the photo shoot was two hours. They called me beforehand what do you want to wear? What are you going for? I picked out some outfits. I talked about my outfits for a long time, of what I was going to wear. I went in, had a great photo shoot. Awesome studio photographer was amazing, took me to different things lighting, put your chin up, move your shoulder. All of that styling Went back for the viewing, which was a little bit confronting big screen with all my images up there. What would I like to buy?
Tania Segura:and in that moment I thought these images are amazing, that's me, but they're amazing the way the photographers know what they're doing my outfits but I had hair and styling done um the lighting, the framing, and that's where I sort of understood that we're 3D people.
Tania Segura:But photography is a 2D art and there are people who know what they're doing and there are models who know what they're doing. What shapes, what angles, what faces, what expression are you bringing, what vulnerability are you bringing, what power, what control? And so I bought those images. I also got a few images for free, and then the producer said here's a list of modeling studios. These ones are for mature age, these are editorial, these are for this, this and that. Why don't you apply? I?
Tania Segura:went back and talked to girlfriends and said I don't want to do that, I don't want to be a model.
Tania Segura:And then one day I thought only a few weeks later I thought well, if I don't ask, the answers always know I'll apply. I applied to one studio, which shall not be named, who didn't even reply, but then I applied to this second with my images and they said coming for an interview. I went in for an interview, had a great interview. Later that day, or maybe the next day, they wrote back and offered me a 12-month contract for commercial modelling and casting. So I accepted.
Amra Pajalic:What I love about that you've kind of left this out is you were kind of at home. Yeah, getting a bit blah, yeah, like, uh, and then that's when you apply yeah, so you know, this is the thing Sometimes, these moments where it's just like impulse, yeah, impulse, I just want to fix your microphone. Yes, it's just kind of tucked in a little bit. Okay, I'm very expressive with my hand movements.
Amra Pajalic:I know all about it, so I just love that also, where it's like and this was just an Instagram competition of which you do many, many, yeah, and so you know, I really believe a lot in that, where you just put things out into the world and you don't know what will come back.
Tania Segura:That's right, but it's just having those possibilities, it's the possibilities and I thought, well, if I didn't apply, my life would be the same. Yeah, and if I applied and didn't get it, my life would be the same. I'm not losing anything by applying, but if you apply and you get it, then the world can change. Well, that's the thing. And now Jean has also yes, my beautiful darling husband. I think he was just inspired by my story, because we sort of have an idea. Well, I grew up in the 90s and there was Kate Moss and there was Naomi Campbell and there was Claudia Schiffer, and if you didn't look like them, you weren't a model.
Tania Segura:But, now the world has opened up and people of all shapes, sizes, ethnicities, backgrounds, ages want to be in front of the camera, and people want to see that in front of the camera. And people want to see that in front of the camera. And so gene went and had a great time with a photo shoot um, because really great images and then thought, well, I'll apply to the same agency.
Amra Pajalic:And so he applied, got an interview and now has been offered a contract as well and the exciting thing is um, there are a lot of gigs that are being offered where it's looking for couples or pairs, yes, and so this is also an opportunity.
Tania Segura:Things that we can apply together.
Amra Pajalic:Yeah, yeah, so it's sort of opening up more doors.
Tania Segura:I'm just really excited to see what happens. Same. You know like we both applied for something that's in the works at the moment and we both got a call back to do a self-tape. So we both sent auditions in to see what the next stage is. And if we both get it great, and if one of us gets it great, and if we don't get it, yeah, oh well. Well, it's just a possibility, yeah now.
Amra Pajalic:Well, if your life just gets more and more interesting. You had a recent brush with fame as a guest does on sbs insight for their 50th anniversary edition. So again, how did this happen and what effect?
Tania Segura:does this? Have experience, so this is the same story I know I love the same story, except it wasn't instagram, it was facebook. This time scroll scroll do you see? Do you see start?
Amra Pajalic:applying for these things.
Tania Segura:So facebook, um, sbs was turning 50. This year is turning 50. This year is turning 50 this year. Insight, the program on SBS, put out a little thing. Sbs is turning 50. Have you turned 50 recently? What's your story? I?
Amra Pajalic:turned 50 last year.
Tania Segura:So I put a little bit about my life and mentioned that I'd just been signed to a modelling agency. So weeks later, a producer called me back and said we're gathering information about Australians turning 50. Yours looked really exciting and different. Tell us about it. So I talked about the same story with the modelling agency. I talked about dancing. I talked about my husband. I talked about my first husband, divorce, my children, menopause. I talked about being a high school teacher. It was a two-hour chat on the phone and she said great, we've gathered lots of information, thanks for your time.
Tania Segura:And then, about a month later, the same producer called me back and said I've brought your story to the table. We'd like to invite you to be on the show, which was kind of exciting. And I said so when was it? When is the filming? And they said it's during the school holidays and it's at our expense. Yes, so I thought it would be silly to say no, I don't need to take time off work, I don't need to put any money towards this. I've already got time where I'm just hanging around the house anyway. So all expenses paid, which meant flight accommodation, dinner that night, breakfast the next morning, cab charges.
Tania Segura:I think in two days I spent like $6 on a chai or something like it was all expenses paid and that was a really great experience to be in a studio to understand how TV works. Um, I got to listen to other stories. I met anthony mundy, which was really exciting. You know the addition, yeah, yeah, um, and just to be part of that experience, to see how it all feels, I also found out I'm quite an expressive listener.
Amra Pajalic:Yes, because she got so much air time, so much air time and there's a little bit where I go. Yes, I love to cry.
Tania Segura:She's like dabbing, dabbing gently and crying, because my gorgeous, talented daughter did my makeup for me and she said if you cry, if, like, I cry all the time at everything.
Amra Pajalic:she said if you cry, don't wipe because it'll ruin the makeup, so I very carefully dabbed away the tears which made a dramatic moment. I was really good so that was great. And then, after that of course, I shared it on all my socials.
Tania Segura:I was so excited about you know this experience that I had. And then then, the photo studio who started this journey, who took those photos in the first place, saw my Instagram reel and circled back and had an interview with me.
Tania Segura:They liked my story, which was really their story and spoke to me about putting a campaign together. I'm not sure whether it's to promote their studio or just a campaign that they'd like to do, but it was really nice to have that conversation with them and perhaps something will come of it, but maybe not. But like in dancing, like in life, business is always personal. It's about making connections and maybe you'll use those connections later for something as part of your business or to grow your business. But maybe it's just about making that connection.
Amra Pajalic:Yeah, and I think also just joy. I think we talk about this a lot, a lot, because, you know, we're teachers and we love teaching. In the moments in the classroom they're always different, but in terms of the institution of, you know, school and being in a school, it's very deja vu, yes, um, and everything's planned a year in advance and all of this. And so for us, and especially at this point in our lives, we're just looking for joy. Yes, we're just looking for interesting and new experiences, and also, I think we are braver than we've ever been before.
Tania Segura:I think so because failure is just another step closer to what you're trying to achieve, whatever that success is. So if someone said to you you have to apply to a job 25 times, but on the 26th you'll get it, you don't see those 25 as failures, you just see it as the next step. We don't know, it's 25. It might be 100. It might be 1,000. It might be a million. You don't know but what. It might be 100, it might be 1,000, it might be a million. You don't know. But what if it's only two? What if it's only six? And so you don't see those as failures. You think, well, I made that connection, I had that opportunity. It wasn't for me, but when it is for me, and what is for me will find me, and I think the other joy is you don't even think about the ones that don't succeed anymore.
Amra Pajalic:You know like onto the next thing. You don't dwell so much. Yeah, oh well, what's the next thing? Yeah, um, and so then, if things happen, they happen. If they don't, you're like just a lot more flow to you I think so too.
Tania Segura:Yeah, and just go with the flow, yeah, which is really nice.
Amra Pajalic:yeah, because you know, after so many years of like I'm almost trying, um, I'm enjoying now where I'm like I don't feel like I'm trying, I do things, and it sometimes feels like I'm almost not doing things, but I am. I'm actually generating all of this. But it's just like this is the logical thing. You just go and do this, you just, and then whatever happens happens.
Tania Segura:Yeah, whatever happens. And I think now maybe we're reaping those rewards and making all those connections of doing all that learning, of trialing different things, of experimenting, failing although what is failing I don't know, it's just giving it a go and it didn't work.
Amra Pajalic:Yeah, like it's not that deep no, and like I, because as teachers we do this a lot where we have this conversation with the students, where they're lacking so much in confidence and they're kind of almost paralysed by it.
Tania Segura:Yes.
Amra Pajalic:And so we're having to really work through that in terms of the teaching part, and it's just about trying and getting there. And you know, so much of it is muscle memory and that's the thing with us now at this point, where we're just trying things. It's just muscle memory, you just do things.
Tania Segura:Just give it a go.
Amra Pajalic:Just do it.
Tania Segura:And I think there's success in repetition.
Amra Pajalic:Yes, very much so, very much so, like this whole podcast kind of just came to be. And then this interview process um, I'm interviewing all of my friends and people I know, first because I need to build that up within myself. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, um, what are some pros and cons? So just to transition like in a sense we sort of talked about it like the pros and cons about transitioning into midlife. So I think we've got a question on that.
Tania Segura:Okay, yeah, definitely. Less fear, yeah, less worry about what other people think, less fear of judgment, not so worried about the perfectionism anymore. I think first create it, then you can clean it up. And I think you know I do that with choreography, I do that with the classes, but also with learning new things, like I'm in a position of learning, um, how to do a self-tape, how to do an audition, what it means to be in front of a camera you should have heard her technical questions before we sat down.
Tania Segura:Where would you like me to sit? Where would you like me to look?
Amra Pajalic:you know these are things I hadn't thought about. I'm just like you, just sit, you plonk yourself um, I also think midlife brings menopause.
Tania Segura:Do you want me to talk about?
Amra Pajalic:oh, please do that is the next question on my list question.
Tania Segura:So menopause, I've thought a lot about this. I've always been very aware of my physical womanhood, like and I think in that, like you know, we've had conversation about periods and menstrual cycles, and I've had menstrual cycles that have been painful and but I've always seen it, as this is so cliche, a blessing to be a woman Only someone with her joyous reproductive system can say this and I think of course there are lots of horrible things about the way we're treated as women and that's a whole other conversation.
Tania Segura:But I sort of saw my menstrual cycle as an opportunity to be rid of what wasn't working that month. An opportunity to be rid of what wasn't working that month, an opportunity to rage and scream and cry and physically let go of what wasn't working in you know, the menstrual cycle. And I think that men sort of hold on to that toxicity because they don't have that menstrual cycle where they get to rage and cry and say all the things they've been holding on to and and so menopause has been well.
Tania Segura:I kind of think it's a great place to be. I've had the hot flushes, I've had the rage. I've had the hot flushes, I've had the rage, I've had, all you know, nosebleeds and joint stiffness and Frozen shoulder. Frozen shoulder and emotions that haven't been in my control, and sadness and anger and indifference and all of that. But I think as women, we get to have menopause, we get to be out of that mothering maternal cycle and I think there's still room to create. But there's something about leaving the maiden and embracing the crone.
Amra Pajalic:Yes, I love that actually yeah, and I don't mean chrome like witchy hag which I kind of like I do kind of like we get to be smart beasts if we want yes, and that that's the thing you'd get to the point. You just don't care, but I also think.
Tania Segura:With the chrome comes the oracle, the sage, the wise woman, the mentor, and we're not in this veil of estrogen, of producing, and once that veil drops, we get to own ourselves a little more. We're not about keeping the family, creating the family, um, because with that there's always a little bit of self-sacrifice. Some compromise, yes, um, keeping the unit together, putting yourself. Second put not even second, not even on a list you know, write a list of all the people you love.
Tania Segura:When do you get to write your name on it? Yeah, um, and I think there's something in you know. I know I don't mean being selfish, but I know that there's a little bit of every day. If you can make someone's life better, that's great, but what if, some days, it's your life?
Amra Pajalic:Yes, and that's what I'm enjoying putting myself first, actually listening to my voice, listening to what I want. There's a joke in my house I'm a bit of a narcissist, I'm turning into a bit of a narcissist and I'm like yep, love it, I want it.
Tania Segura:Yeah, I think we should reclaim a little bit of that and I think in menopause that's the time, yes, and you know, it can be little things like what do you want for dinner tonight? I don't mind you cook, or it can be. I really feel like chicken, like it's such a little shift, yes. And then there are big things. You know. There are women who are divorcing during this time. Yes, there are women who are making career changes. There are women who are sadly becoming homeless because everything is upside down.
Tania Segura:And I think it's about understanding, controlling and directing where it all happens.
Amra Pajalic:Yes, if you can, and I mean for me. I am on hormone replacement therapy For me. I had to because things got really bad. I know you were front and centre for that, like you know, counselling me through on a daily basis and I was this close to divorce.
Tania Segura:But sometimes, like you know, you're crazy right, like sometimes those conversations are like this is not right Just embrace the crazy Like yep, but things are better now and now I can find the joy in it.
Amra Pajalic:But there are a lot of women in my position who do need the hormone replacement therapy, who do need um the the support and the pharmaceutical support um in order definitely, and then there are women like you who don't. Um, I'm so happy for you, um, but yeah, like it's, it's a very and there's also a correlation between you always had great things with your reproductive system.
Tania Segura:Yes, emily felt pregnant.
Amra Pajalic:Yes, the regular cycle, the nice light cycle, and then people like me who had difficulty getting pregnant. My cycle was always, you know, off very heavy.
Tania Segura:I think I had endometriosisosis, so always a lot going on and I think that's recognizing that I have been very blessed in that area and I'm aware of where my body is, but it means that you've always also been aware of where your body is and and how to manage control.
Amra Pajalic:Be aware of that so it's not about myself was better than yours no, but it's also about the fact that you do need to prepare, Like you do need to sort of think about how has your body dealt with these changes and these transitions, and for me they were always hard and always brutal. Yes, and so you know, I did seek help.
Tania Segura:I was very fortunate that at this time there is a recognition of you know, being able to use hormone replacement therapy that that at this time there is a recognition of you know being able to use hormone replacement therapy, that a lot of the stuff that was about it has been debunked completely Well.
Amra Pajalic:A lot of the studies were old, they are and they were actually. Like you know, they are not the hormones that are being used now, so there was a lot of misinformation. A lot of women suffered, so I'm very thankful to be at this time where I'm getting the benefit of that and I think it's our generation.
Tania Segura:Yes, we're not a voiceless generation.
Amra Pajalic:And we are not accepting it as because there's so much misogyny in medicine, so we're not accepting it.
Tania Segura:No.
Amra Pajalic:We're not going. No, that's fine. Accept the pain, it is what it is. Yeah, it's like. No, we deserve a good quality of life. We deserve a good third act. Yes, you know, because this is the thing. This is the time for the third act and this is the time to still be fabulous.
Tania Segura:Yes, and to do fabulous things. And you don't have to be a maiden, you can be a crone.
Amra Pajalic:Yes, and to be a fabulous crone, yes, thank you, yes, in the swamp. So just any last words on the power of the arts for well-being and joy oh well, I think people take them for granted.
Tania Segura:Like we talked a little bit about that dark lockdown two years people turned to music, books, film, tv, creating art. Um, anyone who was on reels or tiktok at the time was a dancer and was like, yes, this is what we should be doing. You don't need a degree to have fun, to choose joy. You can start painting, you can start writing, you can do all that. So it wasn't like in the dark times, but also when people want to celebrate, let's go see a movie.
Tania Segura:I read a really great book. Do you want to do this? Come dancing, pick up an instrument, make music, and we should be celebrating that the arts are here. I think it's what makes us human. I think when you have a little bit of spare time and you don't need to work an extra shift, and you don't need to cook a meal and you don't need to, people then turn to what if I made something? Or what if I went back and picked up the knitting needles? Or what if I? And so I think it would be lovely if ai eventually took all our jobs and we could just play. We could play and the government would look after us and give us shelter and food and all the things we needed.
Amra Pajalic:Well, yeah, there is more. There are some places in in the world now where they are offering a living wage because they literally are not enough jobs wow people right.
Amra Pajalic:So for me it's fantasy, but I also grew up with sarah connor, so I'm a little bit wary of it I'm actually, um, I mean, that's the thing also like I, this time of life and this ability to sort of try things. It's also about play. It's also about just doing things for the fun and for the joy, and just almost it's irrelevant the result, it's just the actual process. Yes, like just just trying and having fun and just doing something different and also learning new skills. I'm loving learning new software packages and learning new things Me too.
Tania Segura:Yeah, the learning is exciting because it's new. I'm sure it does something amazing to the brain the learning yeah. As does dancing. Everyone should be dancing all day, every day, at least starting the day well, I do I do my dancing, uh, in my bedroom.
Amra Pajalic:Yes, great, I do, and it doesn't need to be monetized like art.
Tania Segura:Creating and play should be something we do because we're human.
Amra Pajalic:Yes, yeah, I mean there is joy when you do get paid. Yes, but if you're good at it, if you could, yeah, but it's just also um, you're just just having that play, yeah for sure. Well, thank you so much for coming on my podcast thank you transitioning into interviews, so I will be interviewing different people, interesting people, all about joy, life, midlife life, lessons and thank you so much, tanya. Thank you beautiful friend, for coming on and for also being so fabulous and so interesting. Thank you.
Amra Pajalic:So much to talk about. Thank you so much. Join us next time. Thank you for tuning in to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe and follow for more insights, stories and inspiration From my armchair to yours. Remember every story begins with a single word.