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Amra 's Armchair Anecdotes
Embracing Neurodiversity in a Square-Peg World: A conversation with Lee Agius
Lee Agius shares her journey from sculptor to art therapist, revealing how chance encounters and supportive mentors helped her discover her creative path despite early educational challenges as a neurodivergent learner.
• Becoming a sculptor after a chance comment about her expressive hands during her travels in her early 20s
• Art school experience highlighting the difference between creativity for expression versus creativity for external validation
• Late diagnosis of dyslexia and ADHD providing clarity and compassion for her younger self
• Creating Artful Warrior Mental Health Therapy Service to provide accessible art therapy
• Balancing multiple roles and projects as a business owner with neurodivergent needs
• Navigating perimenopause and menopause challenges while questioning why women aren't more prepared
• Finding clarity and self-acceptance in post-menopausal life
• The transformative power of arts allowing her to progress from being unable to write essays to earning a master's degree with 98%
Visit amrapajalic.com/podcast for episode handouts and guides.
Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes.
Amra Pajalic:I'm Amra Pajalic, writer, teacher and storyteller. Pull up a chair and let's dive into stories about writing life and lessons learned, sharing wisdom from my armchair to yours. You can find the episode show notes, your free episode handouts and my how-to guides at amrapajalic. com slash podcast. And now it's time to dive in. Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. Today I have Leigh Adjus.
Amra Pajalic:She's a registered art therapist, a creative facilitator, visual artist and yoga teacher who brings a holistic, heart-centered approach to mental health and well-being. She's based in Deer Park and offers one-on-one art therapy sessions, facilitates expressive arts workshops that help people reconnect with themselves through creativity, movement and mindfulness. With a practice grounded in both the therapeutic and creative arts, leigh has worked with community organisations, councils, schools and health services to deliver meaningful, accessible programs that foster resilience, connection and self-kindness. Welcome, leigh. Thank you, ambra, thank you. So thank you for coming on Now. We actually know each other because we are both artists in residence at the Hunt Club, and so we've had the opportunity to get to know each other and support each other. But your life has always involved arts in some way. So can you tell me how you began as a sculptor and you evolved into an art therapist and community artist.
Lee Agius:Art therapist and community artist. Okay, well, first of all, thank you for having me here today, amra. My journey I guess I need to start with when I left school early. I didn't know what I would be good at and what my passion was, what my calling was in life, and I was quite impressionable when I was about 21,. I went travelling and I met a guy and we hung out for a while and he said to me he said your hands are very expressive, have you ever thought about doing sculpture? And it was almost as if he like metaphorically, it's almost as if he opened a door for me to seeing myself in that lens, because nobody had ever said that to me before and I was kind of like oh wow, I've never considered that. It sort of landed in my body, but I wasn't quite sure where that was going to go. I was very young. I was just traveling around very carefree.
Lee Agius:About a year later I found myself on a community in northern New South Wales living with. In the community there were other artists old enough to be my parents and they really took me under their wing. And there was a sculptor and his wife and they asked me to come to their property to learn to sculpt. At this stage it was very much about carving, and so I began doing some sculpture with them and that really opened up my passion for it, I guess. So I decided to come back to Melbourne and I applied for Swinburne TAFE and then I went to TAFE for two years and then I applied for RMIT Sculpture and so that was great.
Lee Agius:I successfully got into sculpture degree and then at the third year sculpture degree and then at the third year one of my peers again kind of same story she she said she came up to me and she said um, rmit are having an open day and they're showing, showcasing creative arts therapy, and I thought of you and I thought you would probably be good at that. Again, I'd never heard of creative arts therapy. It was like it was like another person kind of saying hey, lee, there's a kind of these open this door and take a path down here and see where that might land you. So I'm very grateful to those people. You know. They kind of came into my life, not for a very long time, but kind of they were like my little guides.
Amra Pajalic:Yeah, and I think sometimes it's interesting how people see something in you. Like this whole podcast started in a sense out of peer pressure, where all my friends have been telling me you should start a podcast. And then things just sort of start percolating in the back of your mind and you're like should I, what could I do? And then suddenly you find yourself on this path and you know it kind of wasn't your idea, like people, but because they saw that in you, you start thinking, oh, there's something there.
Lee Agius:Yeah, there's such power in that there is such power in that there's such power in being seen, I think, from an objective point of view and, yeah, it's very interesting.
Amra Pajalic:And, like I just said, you know things that we didn't even think about.
Lee Agius:Take us a while to sort of think we're worthy of that we should try that, absolutely, yeah, and I think it really does come down to self-worth as well. Yeah, yeah, that's something that I think we both battle with. Yeah, yeah, and I think it really does come down to self-worth as well. Yeah.
Amra Pajalic:Yeah, that's something I think we both battle with that a bit.
Lee Agius:Yeah.
Amra Pajalic:So how has your understanding of creativity changed over time?
Lee Agius:A lot, immensely, I guess. As a young person I didn't recognise myself as creative, but when I reflect back, I think being able to express myself creatively was very important. When I went to art school I thought that in order to be creative I had to identify as an artist. That came with a few challenges for me, because I just wanted to use art to feel good and to express myself and to develop as a person, but at the same time I felt like it was being fine art and you get critiqued a lot. There is a lot of judgment in fine art and so I got a bit dis. I wasn't enjoying myself so much. I finished my degree and then, when I did my Masters in Creative Arts Therapy, I did my thesis on where does my creativity lay in my everyday life. Because I really wanted to, because everybody is innately creative and the way that we are creative is in all sorts of ways, and so that was a great big. It changed my whole perception for the better.
Amra Pajalic:There's this thing about either you are creative or you do it for some aim or for payment or for recognition, and there's not enough of that. For some aim or for payment or for recognition, and there's not enough of that. We just sometimes do creative things for ourselves. Yeah, like there are all these things that I'm doing as part of all of my writing life that I just find so much fun, yeah, and that's what's lost a little bit that sense of fun and that sense of play. And then also that thing of it's not going to be great the first time you do things. It's not great, but you always feel like it has to be perfect and it has to be this amazing thing.
Lee Agius:Yeah, unfortunately, somewhere along our growth path, we think that in order to be creative, we have to be creating something amazing and fantastic every time. I mean, for me, creativity is all about problem solving. You're just continuously problem solving and skill building.
Amra Pajalic:Yeah, and also just exercising and processing. Like a lot of my writing is me processing things and just having a way of getting through it, yeah. So what role does your neurodivergence play in shaping the way you hold space for others?
Lee Agius:I guess because I was late in age, diagnosed so when I was a kid I'm dyslexic. But when I was a kid it was hard for me to get through the curriculum, so I didn't finish school in time. I didn't finish school, I left in year 10. I couldn't do year 11 and 12. Do year 11 and 12. And I guess once I was in my 20s and I thought, oh, something, I bet I'm dyslexic, Something has to be going on.
Lee Agius:I didn't actually get myself tested until I was 50 or maybe 52. And when I went to get myself tested I just was because I was just like this is ridiculous. How many times do I have to try to write these words? I just can't remember how to write them and amongst other things. But when I went for the assessment they said it came back that I have ADHD as well. So that was mind-blowing for me. So I actually don't really identify so much with the ADHD as I do with the dyslexia and maybe there is lots of crossovers with them as well. But I certainly think that my neurodivergent self can really hold space for other people because I'm neuroreferming. I respect all people, that everybody's different, that no two people are the same, even if they have the same challenges and diagnosis, and that I think I have a very felt sense of understanding of what people might go through when they're trying to be, you know, a square peg, trying to fit into a round hole, you know.
Amra Pajalic:How has that diagnosis? Because I've been reading a lot about this, a lot about a solution of women who are getting diagnosis of ADHD. How has that helped or not? Like you know, with your identity? What has that actual confirmation done?
Lee Agius:look. Initially it made me feel like, wow, how did people miss that? I, I guess I went to primary school in the 70s. I went to three different primary schools and I grew up with a single parent. She's also neurodivergent, so she wouldn't and she didn't have the opportunity to have education herself. She was pulled out of school at 14 to go and work. I guess that's what they did as first migrants coming to Australia. And so when I at first I felt like how did nobody notice? Why was mum called up to the school all the time? And I was always. She doesn't pay attention. She's easily distracted. Have you checked her eyes? Have you checked her eyes? We need to put her up in the front of the classroom.
Lee Agius:When I got to high school, I did a lot of high masking In order to do that. I misbehaved, and that was the only way. To misbehave was easier than feeling the shame. Yeah, so, because there was a lot of words that I couldn't sound out and so I couldn't pronounce them properly. So I was scared that I was going to spit wrong or not understand the whole of what I was being asked. So when I got the diagnosis, initially I felt, wow, how can people miss that. But at the same time it was also like all of a sudden it was like a computer download. It was like all these things came into my mind and all the dots got joined. It was like, oh, no wonder, no wonder I actually could see myself in a lens of compassion. I actually went through a bit of a phase where I was really working on the inner child.
Amra Pajalic:Yeah, and healing, yes, I think. I mean I'm a teacher and so I see that side of it also. Where I'm dealing with, you know, I don't merge in children children with learning needs and individual needs and in a high school setting. Only those who are high functioning can be in a high school setting, because it is untenable. You know the sensory overload and all of that, and then even the class sizes. You know where it's 25, 26 students and then you've got an individual needs student and I know, as a teacher, the years that I have a student that is high needs, the pressure in terms of trying to support, yeah, and I've heard so many stories of people who our generation were overlooked, were made to feel like the problem because the school system is not set up.
Amra Pajalic:No, for the round, yes, in the square, yes, it is not set up for the round in the square, it is just not. And so if they can't make you fit, they kind of, you know, brush you out, and that's one thing that I struggle with the longer that I'm a teacher. Yeah, yeah it's difficult.
Lee Agius:It's hard to accommodate for everyone. I understand.
Amra Pajalic:Well, and it's not set up and you know like it does need to be the ratio of much less students, like in the. You know like there's this push now to integrate students with individual needs in a school setting, but you know we're in a school with 1,600 children.
Lee Agius:Yeah, that's right.
Amra Pajalic:And 200 staff. Now you've got ADHD. That's a lot of stuff going on. It's not only those that are on medication and that the medication works. And I've seen the kids. You know there was one student. The medication ran out and didn't take it for that day, and just the things that he did and afterwards you're having these conversations. It's just blankness where he can't recognize cause and consequence because the brain is just bad impulses and as someone who has a little bit of bipolar in my you know biological chemistry I understand the bad impulse side.
Amra Pajalic:Yes, you know where it's like the impulse comes over you and you know, yeah, so it is very like now there is more testing and stuff and there is more support, but there's just not enough funding still. There is just not enough funding being provided.
Lee Agius:It's good to see that there is a lot more awareness now for young people, which is great. Yes, in our generation it was not even I don't feel like it was talked about or even recognised.
Amra Pajalic:Yeah, and still in some communities, because we are in an area which is in a lot of newly arrived migrants, there are a lot of communities that still view this with shame. They refuse to get children tested, they refuse to provide, you know, to allow them to sort of access support, because it's about the shame, yeah, and so they send their. They won't send their children to school or settle cater for them. They have to go to the regular school, yeah, and that creates a lot of issues.
Lee Agius:Yeah, yeah.
Amra Pajalic:Yeah, so what inspired you to start your own practice? Artful Warrior Mental Health Therapy Service.
Lee Agius:I think after working in quite a variety of settings and then taking on some leadership roles.
Lee Agius:So I coordinated an art program for a mental health organisation and then I went on to manage a program for another kind of grassroots organisation and the NDIS, which is the National Insurance Disability Scheme, started to roll in and a lot of services were, I guess, starting to feel the pressure of whether or not they're going to still exist within this model and I felt like the service that I was working in was I wasn't. I was unsure whether it would be able to make the transition, and because I was in so many leadership roles, I kind of thought I think I can do this myself. I think I can maybe try to work this out for myself. I did that very gradually. I got a lot of mentoring and I started my business by still working for an organisation two days a week and so I could just slowly build where I needed to be and it's been a huge learning curve. You know, the first couple of years I kind of just broke, even really with money, but I haven't really looked back since. I've decided to grow my own business.
Amra Pajalic:Yeah, something I admire in terms of the way that you're able to do all these different things and provide different, because you deliver yoga programs at community centres, you work with clients one-on-one, you do workshops with community organisations, so it's just that lovely thing of all the different skills and all of the stimulation that you get. Yeah, there's a lot of hustle.
Lee Agius:There's a lot of hustle. I'm a side hustler, for sure, but I think it suits my personality. It suits my neurodivergence, because I want to juggle more than one thing at the same time, and I want to. I've got a lot of ideas. You know, sometimes it's hard to see through the whole idea and it does become a bit boring for me at the end, but I love variety. I do remember, even before I left to go travelling and I was about 20 years old, I remember looking out my office window and thinking I can't do this every day. I'm not going to be able to do this nine to five every day. I can't. I just don't. It doesn't suit me. So I do feel quite grateful that somehow I have parved this lifestyle for myself as well.
Amra Pajalic:Yeah, I can relate to that because I'm the same where I need lots of things as well. Yeah, I can relate to that because you know I'm the same where I need lots of things going on yeah. So this is something I would like to aspire to, but I've got other needs that haunt me in place. So running a practice involves a whole other set of skills, and we've talked about this a lot admin, marketing, compliance. So how did you learn to wear?
Lee Agius:all these? How did I learn? I still don't know how I've really worked it out, because some things are so confusing, like especially all the processing stuff, like reading a paragraph and trying to break that down what is actually. They're asking me, trying not to get overwhelmed by all the different parts of you know just yeah, you do wear a lot of hats, I guess at the beginning there were times where I felt like I was burning out.
Amra Pajalic:Yeah.
Lee Agius:And I think that that's because I just didn't leave myself enough space in between for things like admin for doing you know my invoices, you know you've got to be HR and you've got to be you know payrolls and you know front of desk and then the facilitator. And so I have learnt to make more room for myself in between things and to also recognise that saying yes, seeing opportunities, is great, but be careful what you say yes to, because that's the easy bit.
Amra Pajalic:Yeah, as someone who just did a job where because I'm really bad at remembering how much they said they were going to pay me Somehow I inflate it in my head and start doing a job, I'm like it's okay, I'm getting paid this much money. And then I go to invoice and I look back at the contract and I'm like it wasn't that much money.
Amra Pajalic:But you don't know sometimes what you're getting yourself into until you're too far into it and then you're like not going to do that one again. So there are some things I've learned like I'm not interested in and there is no money in the world that can entice me to do those things.
Lee Agius:Yeah, and I guess you live and learn, don't you? You do you learn from doing, I think. And yeah, look, sometimes when I'm doing the admin or I've got to fulfil requirements for the NDIS, I do feel there is a point where I feel very overwhelmed. But somehow, because I'm determined and it really is about that, how much will I give up? Because I could give up, yeah, but I won't, because I want to prove that to myself.
Amra Pajalic:Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing. And there is that pushing through, like that is the thing about arts and small business. You've got to push through because the fun stuff is easy, yeah, it's the not so fun stuff and you've still got to push through. And the other thing is maintaining those professional commitments. You've made the commitment, your name is on the line. You need to see it through, yeah, and then you just need to learn to say no, yes, after that, yeah, exactly Because they're like thank you, but no, yes.
Lee Agius:I guess you get to a point where you know opportunities are great, yeah, it's okay. If you say no to an opportunity, another one will pop up. Yes, I think sometimes at the beginning for me it was like oh, if I say no, you know, there might not be another opportunity.
Amra Pajalic:Yeah, and that's what I'm learning to deal with. And for me it's different because I've still got the day job, so everything I do is rainy, but there is an element of flattery when you get asked and so. But there is an element of flattery when you get asked, so I would get sucked into that a lot where my ego would lead and not my common sense. So I'm learning to balance that more. Where it's like my ego is satisfied, we don't need to feed it anymore. Common sense needs to rule now. Yeah, yeah. So I wanted to change a little bit and talk about the pros and cons as you transitioned into midlife.
Lee Agius:Yeah, so initially through, I guess, midlife, I think, when I was perimenopausal it was not a really enjoyable time for me. I felt like the anxiety hormone was really kicking in. I also didn't understand at first what was happening, because all of a sudden I felt so teary and so tired and it's so hard to tell what was going on because I was so full. My child was still at school and I was running around after him with his sporting events. I was doing volunteer work, I was working, I was trying to start my business. Then I thought oh, you know, maybe I'll feel better if I do a yoga degree or a yoga teacher training. But you know, it was great, but it just added more to my pain. So there was so many. I was, it was, it was difficult. And then I realized why? Why are women not talking about this?
Amra Pajalic:And why do we not know about this before it happens? Yeah, instead we. Now there's a little bit more conversations happening, and this is what I'm wanting to focus on also. Yes, yeah, but yeah, there's just not enough. We're in the middle of it and we're struggling and we battle through it.
Lee Agius:Yeah, yes, I became quite open about wanting to discuss it with other women and just sharing experiences. And then I started seeing a naturopath and I was just trying to hormonally get myself back into just feeling okay, it's such an interesting time of your life because so many things are changing.
Lee Agius:You know your body shape can start to change as well. You don't know when you're going to get a menstrual cycle. You know there's a lot of stuff going on. There are people that you loved. You almost want to like. You know they're annoying or something. Yes, the tolerance, the patience.
Amra Pajalic:Yes, that's right. Yeah, and all those new things. Like I never suffered from anxiety until.
Lee Agius:Perinatal Palsy. Yes, you're right. But now that I'm, I'm post-menopause now, yeah, and I'm feeling really great. Yes, I feel like everything has sort of simultaneously, everything has sort of landed a bit. Now I don't have the hormonal imbalances and I'm also with my work. I found a little bit of a way to keep myself a bit more balanced yes and I'm, and I see myself in a much more compassionate lens.
Lee Agius:I've also had a long time to work myself out, yes, so to know what I am like as a person and know what kind of might serve me best.
Amra Pajalic:I think that clarity is the joy of it. It is the clarity that comes with it. So what is your motto in life and how do you think it's served you in your transitions and pivots?
Lee Agius:I think I've been lucky that I've always had a fairly positive constitution. I think I'm very resilient. I think those things help. I think I always look for the silver lining when things are negative or things are happening in workplaces or whatever. I try not to get sucked up into the doom and the gloom. But I look for for what can I? Nothing stays the same, everything changes, and that we can kind of. So I do look for the silver lining. I do think that it's important to just try to stay positive.
Lee Agius:Yeah, if you can if you can, like it's okay's okay. Like I'm not always positive, but I acknowledge, okay, I'm feeling a bit negative right now. What do I? What is it that I need? We, you know, just let this ride this out, but, you know, aim to get back onto the positive trail yes, so I just wanted to ask any last words on the power of the arts for wellbeing and joy.
Lee Agius:Well, the arts have been so instrumental for me to even be here today. Like, I am so grateful that I found that path, because I wasn't a kid that people were saying, oh you're such a you know, have you ever thought about drawing, or do you want to take this vocation down? This, you know. Have you ever thought about drawing or do you want to take this vocation down? This, you know I had. I left school early because I could not do the exams in year 11. I knew that. So the arts have helped me to.
Lee Agius:You know, I left school. I did not know how to write an essay, but because of the arts because when I was involved in with my lecturers would always pull me up but my artwork they could see that I understood the conceptual framework that they were asking me to work in, that I could do that and I actually got really great results. I had to keep. I was lucky enough that I lived in lots of share houses with really smart people, so I'd ask them to help me not do my essays, of course, but just help me to. I just wanted to learn, yes. So I remember still having a little book of lots of words that I was trying to learn and trying to write. And even when I went to do my master's, you know I was put together with a really great supervisor, so I was able. So it took me much longer than probably everybody else, but I ended up.
Lee Agius:You know, from a person who doesn't know how to write an essay at school to leaving a master's with a 98% was pretty impressive. For me, that is impressive. It was mind-blowing actually. So there is room for growth within the right context. Maybe if I hadn't you know what other course was I going to do that might have allowed me to gradually learn to write, to understand because I can read, but just to process things, yeah. So I'm very grateful for the arts to have afforded me where I am now.
Amra Pajalic:Yeah, and it makes me feel a bit sad as a high school teacher when we don't put enough priority on the arts and there's not enough opportunities for the arts, they kind of get more and more sidelined. Do you and the arts teachers? They really see the strength for kids? Yeah, where there are kids who are getting the A's in that and that's their place for confidence, to build their self-worth. Yeah Well, thank you so much for coming on my podcast and for being so generous and for talking about these things that you know there's a lot of people that will be able to relate to the neurodiversions and understanding themselves. So, thank you, you're welcome. You're welcome, amra. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe and follow for more insights, stories and inspiration From my armchair to yours. Remember, every story begins with a single word.