Amra 's Armchair Anecdotes

Resilience Runs in Our Ink: A Conversation with Demet Divaroren

• Amra Pajalic • Season 1 • Episode 15

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Two award-winning authors discuss the transformative journey from rejection to publication and how fantasy fiction creates space to process real-world challenges.

• Demet shares her decade-long journey to publication through "process, perspective, perseverance, and practice"
• Co-editing "Growing Up Muslim in Australia" helped transform Demet's writing style
• "Blood Moon Bride" explores themes of oppression and resistance through fantasy
• Writing fantasy provided therapeutic distance during postpartum anxiety
• Storytelling carries inheritances through generations, echoing ancestral experiences
• Each generation of women in Demet's family pushed boundaries for the next
• The importance of raising children with intentional language around gender roles
• Perseverance as the key difference between published and unpublished writers
• Self-belief as the foundation for creative success
• We are "always coming of age" throughout our lives, constantly evolving

If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe and follow for more insights, stories, and inspiration. From my armchair to yours, remember every story begins with a single word.


Speaker 00:

Thank you for tuning into Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe and follow for more insights, stories, and inspiration. From my armchair to yours, remember every story begins with a single word.

Amra Pajalic:

Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. Today I'm here with Demet Diveroran. We've actually been friends for a long time, and you are an award-winning author of Living on Hope Street. You're the co-editor of Growing Up Muslim in Australia, which is an anthology we co-edited together. You were born in your mother's childhood home in Adana, Turkey, migrated to Australia with your family when you were six months old, grew up in the outskirts of Melbourne. I love this sentence. Her language was a fusion of English and Turkish words, a phonetic random mix of strong vowels and sneaky silent letters. Today, Demet's unique voice shapes her stories which explore multiculturalism, cross-cultural relationships, racism, injustice, gender-based oppression, and what it means to be human. And Blood Moon Bride, which is here, we've put it on display, is her second novel. Alongside Great Company there. That's right. Um Time Wheels Twin Mountains. And so we're here to talk about Blood Moon Bride, but let's just talk generally about writing. But welcome to Matt. Thank you so much for being. Thanks for having me, Amra. I know we've had um so busy, so many things going on, but we've made it.

Demet Divaroren:

Finally we've made it.

Amra Pajalic:

Yeah, so I wanted to start sort of a little bit more um with the beginning of your writing career, because you wrote several novels before living on Hope Street, and there were ejections that lasted over a decade. Yeah. So what internal shift finally unlocked publication? Process, um, perspective, perseverance.

Demet Divaroren:

I think, and practice, practice, practice. Practice, practice. I think um those are early novels, so Odd Iight, which was um shortlisted for the Vogel Award way back when I was eligible. Yes.

Amra Pajalic:

That one's under certified. That's right.

Demet Divaroren:

Um, and I was still studying at um VU, professional writing and editing um diploma. So it was it was a practice novel, and I'm so glad that it didn't end up being published because it was very it was um undercooked. Yeah, we had a lot of heart, it was, you know, it's a beautiful story. And many of the themes that I was exploring ended up in Living on Hope Street and also uh to an extent in Blood Moon Bride. Um, so definitely perseverance. Uh I just wouldn't give up. So it was like rejection, rejection, rejection for what I ate after, you know, um it was celebrated in such a beautiful way with the shortlisting. And then um I wrote Road to Santa Fe, which I barely remember now, but again, um uh I'm all I always seem to be exploring those really uh dark themes, intense themes, which is not uh it's not a bad thing, it's um you know art and uh writing, it's all a reflection of of real life. So um, so yeah, perseverance after that, and that was rejected, I don't know, a thousand times. And then along came growing up Muslim and Australia. Now, this was the the point where um my my perspective changed a little bit because of what what I mean by that is um perspective in terms of craft. Yes. So we edited um thousands and thousands and thousands of words, and we were mining all these beautiful stories about dual identity, about crushing you know, those stereotypes, and um, you know, just um celebrating our shared humanity, I guess. So um thousands and thousands we had to kind of sift through and find the threads of uh of these beautiful stories. And I think after that two-year process, Living on Hope Street is told from seven different perspectives, and it kind of um it there's they're really short, sharp scenes. So I think this book really helped me gain access to uh a new style of short, sharp sort of um writing that that yeah, that really gave birth in a way to Hope Street.

Amra Pajalic:

Yeah, I think for me also, um, because I went on and wrote my memoir after this, yeah. And I really feel that stepping into the shoes of being an editor and really um because there were some pieces we edited so absolutely, and and when we because I've been using this quite a bit in the classroom, we kind of developed a style in terms of how we edited, and I can see how that style influenced me with my memoir and influenced you uh in terms of your opening with uh anecdote and then the action and stuff.

Demet Divaroren:

Would is would it be fair to say when we say um edited, we absolutely respected the story, and but I'm talking purely like words, like there was a story that was 10,000 words, and we had to kind of um condense condense to about 3,000. Yeah, so yeah, um, I think that's an important point to answer.

Amra Pajalic:

Yeah, so we'll we were working with um you know people who are at different stages of their writing journey. Um, and there were uh some lessons for us along the way. After that, 100%. Yeah, but I I I don't know, it was a fascinating process, and I really feel like um the apprenticeship that it gave me, yeah, like it really changed. And once I opened my eyes, I think it almost feels like you opened your eyes to the editing part of it, and and now we've got it when we write, there's that. Yeah, that's always been yeah, yeah. So that's great. So um, so in a sense, I think you've answered the second question. So living on Hope Street is a raw contemporary realism, because it's dealing with the seven characters. I'm actually sorry I forgot to bring it because what I love about that book is the cover has got the silhouettes of all of the characters, and then when you're reading it, each um character's got their name and their silhouette so that you know whose point of view it is. Um, and it's a beautiful novel because it's it's the different perspectives and seeing the stories from the different perspectives and really telling the story of Australia of all the two apps, the multiculturalism of Australia. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. I love that about it. Can you tell us about Blood Moon Bride? Give me my give me your pitch. What's your elevator pitch of in practicing?

Demet Divaroren:

I'm wrong. I don't do elevator pitches because like they last 15 minutes. My elevator sessions are quite long. I kind of get stuck in them. And then and then I try so hard. Like when I give a really condensed pitch, then I, you know, I really omit some key, very key things in the world. Well, all right, give me the 15-minute glitch. Okay, so Blood Moon Bride. Blood Moon Bride. Um, it is a story of Vea. Um, she lives in Menama Valley, and this is a valley uh that is ruled by quite a ruthless um and greedy governor who um is in the business of using and abusing people and taking away their rights. Um it is a world full of yes, oppression and injustice and uh but also love and family and connection to land and connection to self. So um Rea is well uh the governor, Governor Kyra, he uh uh sends boys off to war and uh marries girls off um quite young so that they can help the valley and they can breed children and Rhea and a lot of people are disgusted by this process, and she um has a choice. Does she submit to this ruthless system or does she rebel? And spoiler alert, she does rebel, she does fight back, and for her efforts, she's sent to the nest um a place to rehabilitate or brainwash um belly folk into uh you know submitting to this system. So it is I know it sounds dark.

Amra Pajalic:

Dystopia is dark. We love dystopia is dark.

Demet Divaroren:

The world is a dark place, yeah, it can be, yes, is, um, and I feel like fantasy is a really beautiful way to help especially young people come to terms with some of these themes um that are very, very real. And um it could help them just process and find ways that they can fight back against systems that might be oppressing them or um you know, in the real world, or oppressing others. And so I think these are really important themes, and it and this book came to me at a time where my life drastically changed. I became a mother um uh first to Zara and then uh to River. So I uh I wrote many drafts of this story. To get to this story, I wrote many drafts of another fantastical sort of novel, and through that I found Menama Valley, and then it was just this big, messy, messy journey. But I wouldn't change it for anything because for me, writing, especially in those um postpartum anxiety days, writing was my one of the only, or one of the best ways I should say. Though there are other ways, of course, my family grounds me, but be just sinking my teeth and my heart and my emotions and and the creativity into a project really helped me take a step back from my own anxiety and just channel everything into this world, all of my passions, disappointments, my love, my hope for a better future for a better world. So it really helped me in so many ways. See, elevator pitch. We were stuck in it for about 10 minutes. Sorry.

Amra Pajalic:

That is beautiful because you know what you're talking about, because we're both very dark riders, we both really explore dark themes, yeah. Um, and you know, we have walked in darkness, but we also walk in light.

Demet Divaroren:

We have some optimistic people who choose to be full of light, but we are aware, yes, and the light. Thank you for reminding me. See, this is the elevator bitch, and the things that I forget to say, but you said light, and light is absolutely at the core of this novel. Yes. And I asked the question: what is it that we inherit from our ancestors? How do we carry that inheritance um, you know, forward? And I think storytelling, art, um, song, dance, these are the things that they they carry through generations and they echo through generations, and they tell a story of of you know, those who came before. And I think um there is so much light, yes, and also in the world, and so much beauty that is just worth fighting for.

Amra Pajalic:

And I think, you know, we read fiction, um, like in a reason why I'm now in the crime fiction world. Yeah, I read crime fiction to feel that sense of justice and to feel that sense of um, you know, resolution. And it's the same with fantasy. We read it because it echoes reality and it echoes what's going on in the real world, but it gives us that sense of resolution, that sense of justice, that sense of, you know, um rebelling and standing up for things matter. And so, you know, even though it is fiction, it really uh holds space and you know, it is very important. And I especially think, you know, young adult fiction, when we're writing for 15, 16-year-olds, writing for 15, 16-year-old selves. Yeah, you know, that's the thing. We're always sort of writing what we wish we had and the stories that we want um young people to read, you know, even though there are so many of us who are adults and we still love young adult fiction.

Demet Divaroren:

Yeah, absolutely. It's one of my favorite genres to read.

Amra Pajalic:

Yeah. I don't know, just so visceral and so real, and the sense of coming and becoming.

Speaker 02:

Yeah.

Amra Pajalic:

Um, I mean, we're doing that throughout our lives, you know, the coming and the becoming.

Demet Divaroren:

Yes, yes, we are always coming of age. I said this the other day. Um, where was I in the school talk? And I said, we if you if you guys think that, you know, adults have got it together, you know, like sure, we may have moments of yes, we're so confident in our lives, in in our um, you know, where we're at, where we're going. But then something will happen and it'll change all that. We have to regroup. So we're always coming of age, yes, forever and ever. It's a permanent thing. Uh identity is constantly shifting. So it's I I reckon that's very true. We're always we're always evolving, and I think that's why I'm so drawn to YA.

Amra Pajalic:

Because it's our first one, it's the first and the primary.

Demet Divaroren:

So yeah, it sets the tone. Yes. It sets the tone. So for me in high school, I went through a period where I was just like de for demand because I was kind of an underachiever, and you know, that was my average grade. So until about year 10, I just kind of laughed along with my friends, and yeah, yeah, that's who I am. I I I fed that narrative, and this therefore I became that narrative. So, um, and it took three words for me to change all that, and I've taken that with me through to adulthood, and even now I'll the words are why not me? Why not me? Why can't I get good grades? Why can't I um get published? Um why not me? It requires a a a skill that all writers need, and that is the ability to, you know, to write, you know, to to dig in to creativity. We've all got that as human beings, so why not me? So yes, it does. It's a I reckon why um or our teen years, it does give us the foundation, and some of that does not change.

Amra Pajalic:

Yeah. So you discovered early on, you at least figured it out in high school. Uh it took me until my early 20s to kind of figure out um that I could achieve and that I could do things.

Demet Divaroren:

Yeah. Um yeah, and it it it is so yeah, those those formative experiences were kind of I think it's because it's so miserable, it's like the strongest ones, but then every decade after that we're constantly evolving. What held you back? Why 20s? Um, for me, it was the fact because my mum was bipolar and life at home was so chaotic, there was no space at all to figure out me and to focus on me. It was always in reaction to. So it was only when I got married, because I'm married when I was very young, I was 19, still married to the same person, um, my husband for 28 years. And it was only because um I was married, I was an adult, I had stability, I had space, yeah, and I had a cheerleader. I never had a cheerleader before that. Absolutely. I never had because you know, the thing about bipolar that a lot of people don't get is that it is um something that makes people very self-involved. Yeah. And so, you know, it wasn't my mum's fault, but she was just incredibly self-involved, and so there was no space for me. Um, and yeah, like I think that that was it, having that stability to actually kind of be like, oh, what do I want? And what people don't understand, I remember when I was in my early 20s, too many people were like, um, oh, being an adult, oh my god, paying bills and doing that. And I'm like, this is awesome! Nobody, because you know, I went to so many different schools, I lived in so many different houses, I was in foster homes. Yeah, my every day would just implode in a moment. Yeah.

Amra Pajalic:

And so for me, being an adult and going, I pick where I live, I pick who I live with, I pick who is in my life, I pick where I work, I pick what I do.

Demet Divaroren:

These were like You had control over your life. Yes. You were, yeah.

Amra Pajalic:

Yeah, and so that was the the big revelation for me. But you know, we don't stop, we are still constantly evolving and becoming different people. Well, not different people, but like, you know, finding different things, we're good at finding our strengths, yeah, realizing what we want to let go of. Yeah, yeah. I just think that young adult thing is is when it's so visceral.

Demet Divaroren:

And the important thing is um to be able to embrace change. Yes, you know, so whether it's with our writing, being able to actually try new things, yeah.

Amra Pajalic:

So you from contemporary realism to fantasy.

Demet Divaroren:

Yeah, so that was a big shift. That was a huge shift, and um it had to be that way. As I said, I really needed that distance away from reality, I needed that safe space to be able to pour all of these, you know, um intense emotions and thoughts and feelings just into this world. So that was really important for the world building, uh liberating, sure, because then you're not tethered to facts and you know, the contemporary world has, you know, the the rules of um contemporary world and um bound by cultural rules as well, and all of that. Um, so yes, liberating in in a really beautiful way, but also oh my gosh.

Speaker 01:

So in the place it's so hard. The rules, the community, like it's it's a very complex world building.

Speaker 02:

Yeah, it was it was very the the geography. I've I've never been good with geography. Like you're not good at it. And it's like I had to actually think of you know where rivers are placed and what's behind here and what's I you know it's good because if you needed complication, you can just add silt. I don't know. Um so yeah, it was fun, but also got to a point where I was like, oh wow, this is this is a lot, and where I had to actually, you know, create a map. Me with maps, I can't even draw stick figures, and I had to even yeah, with an app. It was just hard but wonderful experience, and yeah, I I I loved it.

Speaker 01:

I it's fun to it's it's a great novel, and uh the latest news is it's being made into an audiobook.

Speaker 02:

Yeah, we were listening to auditions. Yes, it's so exciting, yeah. Um that will be the Blood Rim Bride audiobook will be published, I believe, early 2026. So that'll be great. It'll be lovely to see um it reaching new audiences.

Speaker 01:

And I think like a young adult, um, you know, I was actually having parent teaching interviews, and I'm like uh with students who are EAL students, and the parents are always like, what do we do? And I'm like, watch TV with subtitles on. Listen to audiobooks and have the physical book in front of you because it's learning pronunciation. Absolutely. Um and I've been looking at some research in terms of you know, um, people who listen to audiobooks, it does help the vocabulary development. Uh, it's still as if you are um reading it yourself. Yeah. Um, because there are some silly people who are like, oh, audiobooks are not as like you're not reading. Uh yes, you are. I've still got pictures in my head.

Speaker 02:

Yeah, well, I um Zara and Ribba uh no, Zara and I were listening to snippets of a young adult audiobook just the other day, and she's like, Oh mum, this doesn't sound like like a book. It sounds like like acting, or you know, and I said like theater, it's like a play. And she said, yes. And I said, that's the beauty of it. It gives you a totally different experience.

Speaker 01:

And what I love about it is pronunciations, yes, because especially like with your world, it's a whole, you know, fantasy world that is set, uh, and so that like I'm liking how uh then your people will hear the pronunciations and all the stuff.

Speaker 02:

Do you know? Funny, funny and funnily enough, um I struggled more, like when Living Hope Street audio was coming out, and I had to fill in a form with um pronunciations and tips. You know, because it's set in multicultural Australia, we've got so many different um cultures and and names, and um, and of course, Mrs. Aslan, lots of Turkish kind of words in there, and so oh my goodness, that was really, really difficult to um just write it, like spell it out, or just um, yeah, is it the phonetic, phonetic, the phonetics of it?

Speaker 01:

Yeah, or yeah, when I was doing my audiobooks, I recorded all of the names and all of the you know, because I'm like they need to hear it.

Speaker 02:

Hear it. I used I was spelling it out, and I think possibly a few things I did record, but with this one, this is why I was like, nah, the world is universal. Guess what? All the names are universal, and they're you know, um not straightforward. They're still exotic, sure. Um, I don't like that term, but I can't think of a better one at the moment. But um still I wanted a universal feel to this world. It was really, really important to me. Um, I don't um yeah, I even made it a point not to describe people in terms of um you know, their skin colour or any I was really careful not to add any racial identifiers. Yes. It was really important. So in that in that way, it was a huge shift again um from Hope Street, you know, which was exploring all of the beauty of culture and you know, and and it was perfect for that book and it was necessary for that book. But for this one, I was like, it's fantasy, human first. That was my motto. People who were reading this book, I want them to be able to recognize um their shared humanity with these characters. So for these characters, their humanity had to come first.

Speaker 01:

And I like that, yeah. That's the thing about fantasy, you know, it is set in a different world. You don't, you know, people look differently. And I know that there's been some discussions about other fantasy books. That is the joy of it. It is about just taking, you know, creating a different world. Within this world, yes, it has echoes to our world, but it still functions just for the themes, yeah, in a sense, and the story first. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 02:

And yeah, everyone does it differently. And who knows what I'll do with the next one? Who knows what the next one will be? Just quietly. But anyway, let's see. Well, that's more love. Well, actually, have you started working on the next one? Next question. Next question. You're still in the throes of publicity for this. I have started something, but I won't. It's too early.

Speaker 01:

Fair enough. Um, okay, so I sort of wanted to um you talked a little bit about of family and generations and the influence. Um, and you talked about, you know, your grandmother labored immediately after giving birth. You married your mother married young, so the stories of resilience. So what what are the shifts that you see between, you know, like in a sense of how how is that an inspiration? How is that an influence? How is that because I I see that as an influence in your writing and in the way you're approaching it, but I just wanted you to talk about that.

Speaker 02:

The women in our, you know, I the women in our lives, and um I mentioned like those of who have come before and the echoes of of their experiences and resilience. I always say, I come from a long line of resilient women. Um and yes, storytelling has made me better understand. So when I listen to my grandmother and she talks about her mom and their connection and um the lack of opportunities they had to study. Um, but then you know, like my great-grandmother um wanted her daughter to study, but then was also very afraid of it because, you know, back then in the 50s, in cultures across the world, um, I think it was, you know, girls girls studying, I guess, um, they were up against poverty, they were up against um, you know, um illiterate kind of parents, and and my great-grandmother was illiterate. Um yeah, yeah. And so but my grandmother learned, so this is through generations, how did the these shifts happen? My grandmother learned how to write and read. And I remember exchanging letters with her when I was young. Um, so that was a a doorway for us to connect, even in childhood, even though we were thousands of kilometers away in Turkey and Australia. And then my you know, my mum, unfortunately, unfortunately, she's one of eight children. She didn't get a chance to study past primary school. Uh, that really became that was a game changer for her, and it was um her golden ticket, I guess, because it opened up the world to her through literature, particularly through fiction. So she was a huge reader, and so what she did was okay, my daughters will study. My daughters will not get married young. They will study, they will be financially stable, they will have lives first, and then they will, you know, choose to get married when they're ready. So complete, so that's like three is it three generation samurai? Because like my numeracy skills, really, one, two, grandmother, mama, yeah. So, so you can see like the the shifts and the ripple effects of yeah, of of change and also legacy and resilience, you know, and and resistance. How do we how do we resist um these cycles? How do we resist um yeah, like how to create then change and yeah, all of those kinds of elements are really and and yeah, this book is not autobiographical, it's fantasy. No, but I I um you know I'm passionate about these topics. Yes, you know, we keep coming back to those stories.

Speaker 01:

Come back to these stories that really kind of shaped us. Yeah, yeah. And I also think um what you're talking about in terms of you know, uh each generation, that is such an Australian story that each generation has the opportunity to do better because we kind of stand on the shoulders of the previous generations where they're the ones sacrificing and we do better. And so I talked to that, I talked to Sophia about that.

unknown:

Um

Speaker 01:

Um because you know, in a sense we're we're in the same boat where was our parents and where the second children are. The third. And I'm like, you're going to be a better version of me. You are going to achieve things more than me, earlier, better, because they will have the benefit of us being able to translate the education system, the opportunities. Whereas for me, it was really no networks. No, I didn't even understand how university worked when I was in high school. Yeah. I didn't understand so many things, didn't have any cultural capital that our children have access to because of who we are and the fact that we've, you know, had those things. So yeah, like it's it's just um it's really it makes you so grateful, but also it gives you a sense of responsibility to achieve and to move. Like there is there is a little bit of pressure, do you feel?

Speaker 02:

Yeah, of course. And especially like there's a I think about this a lot. So I have um a boy and a girl. And so for me, I think about oh my gosh, there's such there's such pressure for me to even um uh not moderate, but just kind of think really seriously about the words that come out of my mouth. So the pressure of raising children is immense, of course. And then the messaging and and then and so I raise them, I always say this, I raise them equally. I call them beauties. I don't just reserve beauty for my girl. It's you're both beautiful, you're amazing, you're creative, and but when it comes to gender roles, absolutely I am over like I'm not overthinking. I am thinking carefully and intentionally about the words that come out of my mouth. The dishwasher needs to be um cleaned, they are both doing it, they are working together. They're life skills, they're not reserved for one or the other. Yes, and that in itself is so much pressure, and there is so much energy that goes into trying to just expose them as much as I absolutely can to a level of you know equality.

Speaker 01:

I'm not gonna do you feel like that is also um because of our background where we come from? No, it's because of the world that they're going into.

Speaker 02:

Yeah, it's absolutely about that. Of course, back yes, of course, like it's just that's part of the world as well.

Speaker 01:

I come from Bosnian culture, which is very gendered, very patriarchal, and yeah, Turkey culture is is like as well to a degree, yeah. Yeah, so women are the ones who are supposed to do all the household chores. Yeah, so in my household, my joke is um, you know, whenever Sophia's like, oh, um, I'm hungry, I'm like, you've got a father for that. Um she's like, you know, I I need something. I'm like, you've got a father for that. That's that's what a father is for. Um I I don't do anything in terms of housework and booking uh and shopping, he's the one. So that's always my thing. I'm like, that's what men are for. That's his role. Uh so I just flip it completely.

Speaker 02:

And yeah, and and look, of course, like I'm not denying that our cultures share that many, many cultures have that, you know, patriarchal kind of and gendered roles and patriarchal societies. I mean, we do live in the live in a patriarchal society, and this is, you know, they go out into the playground and they hear things like, oh, girls are weak, chuck them in the creek, and I just, you know, when I hear that, I hear that um from many, many children. Like we're at we're at a playground, and people will be like kids will just be throwing things like that around, and I have to sit and say, okay, let's flip that, you know, like or I try and explain that and I'll try and make something fun out of it that isn't got nothing to do with you know gender.

Speaker 01:

It starts, it starts in the playground, and I just it's just so fascinating, but also frustrating, and it's just we've got our word cut out for us, but what I'm stuck on is like how that always come up with these like rhymes that are like the worst rhymes, like the worst racist rhymes, the worst sexist rhymes. That's always the rhymes where they just like you know, they get so catchy, yeah.

Speaker 02:

They get catchy, but um, you know, kids hear it from adults, I think. And the power of language that is the power of language and the power of what we're doing. It is absolutely language is everything, yeah. It is everything, yeah, you know.

Speaker 01:

Well, I wanted to kind of bring it back to what advice do you have for um people? No, no, writing, creativity, um biggest lesson, biggest lesson. What can I say? Writing and creativity. I mean, I think for you the perseverance story is the one. Okay, we've talked about this before where I've said we have both met so many talented writers uh in our journey and in this path, um, who gave up before, you know, they they um kind of didn't keep pushing through. Yeah. And uh we're kind of the survivors.

Speaker 02:

It's it's really, really hard to stay motivated, to stay um, yeah, to keep to to keep the faith, I guess. And yeah, it took 12 years until I published a novel, and I thought I would achieve that in a handful of years.

Speaker 00:

Yeah.

Speaker 02:

Um, and and I think so persistence, keep practicing, keep making the time for writing. But before you do anything, you have to believe in yourself. Because once you believe in yourself, and I always say this, then it's infectious, then others start believing in you. You have to believe in yourself and just stick to it and don't put a time frame on publication or or any kind of reward, because if that's why you're doing it, it's gonna end in a heartache, because even like when you do get published and you do um like win an award, or you know, no matter what, um it's an innate thing. So the external things cannot sustain you. Because then after that, you still have to sit down and write something and have the stamina and perseverance and motivation to stick at it for like five years, for example. You know, you can get it done in two and a half, but really we've each taken five years with some of our books.

Speaker 01:

Yeah, some of them had a really long percolation and went through so many incarnations, yeah. And uh, and that's because we just we could not let go of them.

Speaker 02:

And yeah, you have to maintain that motivation. So no one else is gonna do it for you. It's an innate thing that needs to be nurtured. So again, elevator pitch, right? Just gone on a deep tangent. Hey, that's what we do. This is what we do. It's the best way I can explain it. Um yeah, just don't give up. If it's something that truly speaks to your soul and your heart, and it just gives you life, just keep doing it.

Speaker 01:

I think trust, trust in it. Um, yeah, and that's that's what your journey has proven. Where you know, uh just like a little too tuned. Yeah. Trying. Thank you so much. It was so good. Uh, usually we have our chats without the camera, so you know, this time we recorded for posterity.

Speaker 02:

And congratulations, Amaral. Thank you. It's a beautiful book. I've started reading it. It's a beautiful, beautiful book. It's a hard read, isn't it? It's a hard read, but it is it is wonderful. Thank you. Congratulations. Yes, we know all about the long game, don't we, guys? Yes. All right, well, thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 00:

Thank you for tuning into Amra's armchair anecdotes. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe and follow for more inside stories and inspiration. From my armchair to yours, remember every story begins with a single word.