From Booth to Business: A conversation with Nina Nikolic

I sit down with actor and narrator Nina Nikolic to unpack the craft and business of voice work, from emotional performance and character choices to contracts, rates, and protecting your voice in an AI world. Along the way we swap practical systems for finding clients, tracking jobs, and turning creative energy into a sustainable career.

• balancing creative craft with small business habits
• social media as proof of life and connection
• lead sources, referrals, and asking how clients found us
• audiobook workflow, samples, pacing, and pickups
• pronunciation research and consistency across long texts
• performance choices that separate characters without caricature
• human narration versus AI, ethics, and accessibility
• adding voice protection language to audiobook back matter
• contracts, rights windows, and negotiating clauses
• owning IP and avoiding perpetual, all‑media traps
• input‑based goals versus outcome‑based goals
• pricing to a livable per‑finished‑hour rate
• reflection routines, tracking wins, and sustainable marketing

You can find the episode show notes, your free episode handouts, and my how‑to guides at amrapajalic.com/podcast

Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Nina: Actor, Gamer, Narrator
• 2:02 Creative careers and self-promotion
• 4:10 Social media as proof of life
• 6:20 Finding clients and tracking leads
• 9:45 Audiobook workflow and collaboration
• 13:20 Pronunciation, consistency, and editing rigor
• 17:10 Performance, emotion, and character voices
• 21:00 Human narration vs AI and ethics
• 24:30 Contracts, rights, and saying no
• 28:10 Owning IP and avoiding bad deals
• 31:30 Strikes, craft, and keeping momentum
• 34:00 Goals, habits, and sustainable output
• 37:00 Serendipity, pitching, and rates that pay
• 40:20 Cold outreach, rapport, and real meetings
• 43:00 Nourishing your creative ecosystem
• 45:20 Reviews, reflection, and tracking wins
• 1:00:45 Closing thoughts and next time

Transcript

Amra Pajalic: 0:00

Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. I'm Amra Pailich, writer, teacher, and storyteller. Pull up a chair and let's dive into stories about writing, life, and lessons learned. Sharing wisdom from my armchair to yours. You can find the episode show notes, your free episode handouts, and my how-to guides at amrailh.com slash podcast. Now it's time to dive in. Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. Today I've got Nina Nikolic. She's a Serbian Australian actor based between Melbourne and Sydney. She's known for her playfully gritty presence and versatility. She brings grounded imaginative characters and narration to life across video games, animation, film, audio, dramas, audiobooks, commercial, and corporate work. All things. So audiences may recognize her as Grandma in Fruitbust, Percival in Tainted Grail, The Fall of Avalon, and campaigns for Google and Weight Watchers. A lifelong gamer and Twitch partner under the handle Kit Kerrigan. She thrives in live, collaborative environments with fellow creatives. Off mic, she's also a book lover and uh has a soft spot for cozy romances. Yes. Medical dramas. Oh my medical dramas. Oh my god. Speculative fiction and dogs. And we have worked together where she has been my narrator on three projects on um, she's been Sabiha's Dilemma, Alma's Loyalty, and The Climb, which was a dual-nerated young adult romance. Yes. So thank you so much for coming. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Well, I mean, we've we've kind of been working together for a while. We keep in touch. And then what was like, oh, would you a catch up? And I was like, yes. Can you do a podcast too while you're here?

Nina Nikolic: 2:02

Yes, because I remembered it was like so long since we were in touch. And I remembered that your next launch was coming up, but I couldn't make it. And I was like, we have to have coffee. Oh no, I'm so I want to celebrate. I want to celebrate the launch. And then this came up. So I was like, yes.

Amra Pajalic: 2:18

Well, see, this is the thing now. We can have like catch-ups with people and have a conversation on camera. Yeah. As a great memory and a learning tool. Um, but you know, just to have some fun. And I think um you're a really great person to talk uh, because I've been trying to talk to people about creative life, not also just talking to people who have interesting stories to tell. And, you know, you are working full-time as a voiceover artist. I'm trying to, yeah. I mean that's amazing. So you've got that perspective of the creative aspect in terms of the voiceover work and you know the acting that you do in um voiceover and also when you're narrating books um and then games and stuff, but also the the perspective of being a small business and and having to do all of that stuff.

Nina Nikolic: 3:06

Change it, change the hats, as people say, which is still like a skill that I think comes over time, which I've been learning a lot. Like I'll have one day where I'm complaining to my mom about like, I hate marking, I have to keep emailing people, and I'm so annoying, and they must hate me. And why don't people call me back? And oh, they're probably just busy. I'll get them next time. And then I sit at my computer and I'm like, hello, I am a bad bitch, and uh I would like to work with you. And I think it works really great. And I really think we should work together at some point. Anyway, love your stuff. Like, and then you get off the computer, you're like, no one loves me.

Amra Pajalic: 3:45

I'm never gonna work again. This is awful. It is, you really have to constantly put yourself out.

Nina Nikolic: 3:52

Yeah, you know, like I'll take it personally, and like, yeah, it's it's an interesting space to like be in the place where you have to be your own spokesperson. Otherwise, no one's gonna know that you exist. When I saw, I don't know, one of those inspirational reels or something that was like, you can be as good actor as you want to be, but if no one sees it, or if you don't tell anyone about it, no one's gonna know.

Amra Pajalic: 4:16

Well, that's the thing. And it's like we're we're constantly paddling and kind of like, look at me, look at me. Um, but you have to because and and and things do happen. We do get gigs from social media, we do get gigs from you know, people referring us, or like my last gig um at a library where I did a workshop came from meeting someone at a party. Um, and it took like a year, and then they and I emailed them afterwards. I was like, oh, just following up, uh, these are some workshops that I do. Crickets. Yeah, and then a year later they're like, oh, we met all that time ago. And I'm like, oh now I'm gonna be able to do it.

Nina Nikolic: 4:53

Yeah, exactly. And it it's and sometimes I think you forget how those things interact. Like there are, I consider, I know that literally just before this chat, we were talking about how much I hate social media, because it just feels it feels so effortful sometimes. And sometimes I have those moments of inspiration where I'm like, this would be a really fun reel to make. I'm gonna do that, and then I never get a chance to actually finish it. I like I'll like record it and then something comes up that I have to work on, and then it just gets chucked in the pile or whatever. Um, but it just the thing is, I consider it to be like it's almost like a proof of life body of work. So when I am in addition to my website, because your website can be there and just sit there and it has your stuff on it, and you've got your SEO going and all those things. But the social media side of things, I consider really important as much as I disgruntledly try to keep up with it. It is very important for me when I'm looking at people, I'm like, are they still active? What type of person are they? What type of stuff do they like? All of those things come through your social media stuff that you share. Like my the things I share on Twitter are completely different to what I share on LinkedIn and Instagram and whatever. Sometimes they cross over a little bit. But when you consider all of those things together, I think that's the the tipping point for a lot of people with me. Like they might find my um narration reels, for example. I think narration is probably the biggest one where I think yourself and another author that I worked with recently, Ryan Birch, I think both of you found my reels on the Aussie narrators website.

Amra Pajalic: 6:43

Where I was like looking at all the different narrators in Australia. But then I couldn't backtrack from telling you which one because I'd gone into this dark hall where I'd spend like 500 tabs over here. Yeah, always.

Nina Nikolic: 6:56

But so, but that that website does have my reels on it, and it's obviously a place where lots of people go SEO-wise, Aussie narrators, right? So you're gonna go there as the first port of call. But then it also has like my my blurb, my social media. So you listen to the words, you're like, okay, yeah, I kind of like these. How do I get in touch with this person? What else is there about this person? You go to the website, you see a little bit more about me, but then you hit up the social media and you're like, oh, I actually want to talk to this person. And that's I think where a lot of stuff culminates for me is that tiny little extra connection that's like, oh, I actually can talk to this person. Yeah. Um, and I'll either get like a DM or or an email that's like, oh, hey, I I saw I just want you to do this walk or whatever. Um, and I'm like, oh, cool, how'd you find me?

Amra Pajalic: 7:49

And I'm learning that too. I'm learning to ask people, how did you find me? Because then I'm like, oh, that thing works. Yeah. Exactly. I think that's the thing. I struggled with social media in the beginning because honestly, it feels like you're walking out naked for for like a part of it until you sort of get a get a style. And so I had to force myself. I actually made a goal where I was going to post every day just to build up my reps. Yeah. Just to just to be like, okay, I've just released, just release. Um, and you know, I I guess it's easier for me also because I figured out I can do things where I can do book reels and things where I'm not on camera, I'm creating um social media assets. But for you, it's a little bit different because it's all about what you can create and you know, like your voice, and and so it's a lot more onerous.

Nina Nikolic: 8:40

Yeah, and a lot of the time I can't access. So there's there's this thing where some people say you can't just be posting all of your work all the time. Like no one wants you to gloat, and no one wants all of it. I want you to gloat. But the thing is, you're fabulous. If you don't post the stuff that you've worked on, A, how are people going to know what you've worked on? And B, how are people gonna know what it sounds like and what you can bring? How are people gonna actually see your performance in various things if they haven't played that game or they haven't done this or whatever? So you have to show your, like you have to build how prolific you are in that way while also showing all of the behind the scenes stuff, what I do all the time, your personality stuff, all those things. Um, but a lot of the work that I do also either doesn't come out for like five years, doesn't come out at all because it's internal, or is impossible to track down and impossible to get people to send you the material. Yeah, once it's once it's down there. So um, so that is a process in itself where like once a quarter you sit down and you're like, all right, which of these projects have come out? These have all been like these are all the ones that I I track all my stuff. And so I have all of my projects that are in progress, the ones that need a quote, the ones that have been paid, the ones that are pending payment. I have my once once a month money day, which I is halfway. The chasing of the money, which I have to the I I nearly had one unpaid invoice. I have never had an unpaid invoice. You've managed to touch the crook, get that, get it over the line. Yeah, yeah. The last one was big thanks to my agent, she's tenacious. So that was one of those ones, and bless her. Um, that's Sarah McLeod at Big Mouth Works, by the way. Love you, Sarah. Thank you so much. You're the best. Um, but largely I think it's because I I want to follow up on that stuff. Like the sooner, the s I a lot of feedback that I get actually from clients is how quickly I action things. You do, unless I'm nearly dying.

Amra Pajalic: 10:46

No, no, no. Well, you've always been a little bit more than a little bit. Yeah, during one of my books. But like they were just so great at communicating and keeping in touch. And then what I loved also in was that social media, you were like um providing outtakes and stuff, and oh yeah, those were so funny. Um, like just that behind the scenes, because I um also arranged for my memoir. And so I have just a tiny, tiny taste about how hard it is.

unknown: 11:19

Yeah.

Amra Pajalic: 11:19

Because I I was in the studio four days a week or five days for um six hours.

Nina Nikolic: 11:28

For how long? Just for the one week or for the week.

Amra Pajalic: 11:31

Yeah, right. Uh and uh it was a 70,000-word book. And um, and it was so because like, you know, and and you know about this where you're switching between words. So now I had words in Bosnian that I would say, and then I had to go back to English, and my tongue would do really weird things. Yeah. And then I'm pretentious. I I used all these words in my writing. I don't know how to pronounce. I know how to write them. I know how to write them because of you know all the correct. Yeah. And so then I was like, and so the producer would have to like find, you know, the the pronunciation, then we'd have to practice. And then she'd be like, Yeah, you didn't quite nail it, let's do that again.

Nina Nikolic: 12:13

I yeah, I have to do that myself all the time as well. Like, um, I'm currently reading uh The Real Fight, the Kim Dalton memoir, and that's you know, all related to cancer and her treatment and all of the medicines that were in the city. Oh my gosh, that's crazy. The organs and the doctors' names and all um these things. And so I her partner at the time is the one who's who's doing this book now, re-releasing it for um, I think it was 20 years since she passed. So it's like an anniversary release kind of thing, together with the audio version. Um, and I had to message Robert one day in the booth and I was like, hey Robert, um, I have a list of words for you. Uh, and I was like rattling off all these words. I'm like, can you just let me know if these are correct? Thank you. And so I have like 10 voice memos from Robert in my face of just like telling me Taekwondo terminology, what he remembers, the names of the medications that are, and how closely they work. Because some stuff, you know, you do as much research as you can, obviously, to prepare. But one thing that I've learned is there's different ways to pronounce things too. So there might be a way that I pronounce a word that a client just prefers it pronounced a different way, which is totally fine, but it's something that I then need to wrap my head around every time. Or even sometimes I'll interchange pronunciations.

Amra Pajalic: 13:46

Yes.

Nina Nikolic: 13:46

Well, you'll you do it when I had that versus anesthetist. I can't even say it. I caught myself in the middle of this book, I said anaesthetist twice. I had to, I had to look it up to double check the British pronunciation just in case because I was like anesthetist, anaesthet, anesthetist, and it was a whole thing. And then I caught myself the next time because it also depends on the context of the word and what words are surrounding it. And so I naturally said anesthetist the next time. And then I was like, I don't know, we have to keep this consistent. I'm gonna go back and redo that. So yeah, it is like all of those things, um, as well as the style of the writer can be completely different. Um I think in two of the more recent books, there's uh a style of writing that um that kind of swaps can conjunctions. Uh so instead of like, you know, um it had had or something like that, I would just say it had. And so then I'll have to catch that and be like, oh, it had had this thing. Like even small stuff like that is gonna be picked up as being not accurate. Yes. So, and and can completely change the flow of a sentence, the author's voice, that kind of thing. So that kind of stuff I definitely try to fix. Sometimes if it's like an obvious typo, I'll I'll fix that and then button check. And that's the brilliant thing.

Amra Pajalic: 15:13

Like when I was doing my memoir, you know, picking up all the typos, and and one of the things I loved about having my books narrated is um all the little tiny things, because you know, there's there's things that you pick up, the things that are picked up by my by me, by my proofreader, by you know, all the software that I use. Uh and then there's the stuff that until you read it out loud, yeah.

Nina Nikolic: 15:36

It's just a tiny thing. Yes. But you're like, oh yeah, it is missing like just an A or something. Yeah. Like there was just something in there.

Amra Pajalic: 15:44

And most people don't even notice, maybe, when they're reading, and I mean there's some eagle equal mind. Um, but it is it is the best way. Um, but you know, I can't read it myself because it's too much.

Nina Nikolic: 16:01

And it it's like and stuff like that isn't usually a big deal or anything, but in terms of the narrator um honouring the original text, that's the kind of thing that becomes a conversation of like, is this the type of because a lot the most common one that I find is it looks like the author has written a passage one way, and then they're like, oh no, actually I kind of want to change the tense of this or and restructured it, and yeah, and just and changed one word or missed another one, which like I know when I'm reviewing my writing, I do that all the time. So it'll be something like that, where it's like, did you want it in this tense or this tense? Because there's kind of both in there or whatever. So yeah, just stuff like that I I try to catch and use software and stuff for that as well, and then also like manually go through when I'm editing. So I'll do like a first proofing pass with um with the software, uh, go through, do all the pickups, and then do another listen, actually just sitting with my headphones on with my laptop, and I'm listening, listening, and like, no, that gap was too long. Let me edit that. All right. Now that sounded like shit. I'm gonna fix that.

Amra Pajalic: 17:15

It is, it is because um, you know, there's a process. So when I, you know, was getting you to narrate my books, I had to um try and go through all the words, and that's why I I was looking for someone who shared the same language group as me, because I have um a lot of you know, Bosnian words that are the same as Serbian words.

Nina Nikolic: 17:37

Um try my best.

Amra Pajalic: 17:40

Yeah, but at least you can you can sort of break your tongue because it is about um, you know, that that ability to sort of get the right sounds. Like even with my daughter, I was practicing with her the other day. She doesn't really know how to speak the language, but because she's been around it enough, she can't pronounce properly when when we're practicing. Yeah. Um, because, you know, it's a very harsh language and our consonants are really harsh. And and uh, you know, I know that when I talk to um my husband in front of my daughter, she's like, Lee, why don't you move on? Why are you yelling? Let's have a conversation, darling. This is what we sound like. Um, and so you know, it's just it's just that that sort of thing. So, you know, like ideally in if you're wanting um you're working with a client, so it's you know, getting when I sent you the file, actually you go through the process of what you want if you're working with someone who is doing a book.

Nina Nikolic: 18:40

Um so for me, I feel like I'm a lot more flexible than some people that I've seen. I mean, like I know that people do have their structure because I I feel like any kind of structural rules come out of necessity, right? You have one too many people who like are a bit too much, and you have to have those boundaries. But um, generally speaking, the people that I work with have been super cool and really, really nice. And so my process is usually pretty, pretty loose, pretty open, pretty collaborative. Um, I'll make sure that I send, like, there'll be like a shorter original um sample, kind of like an audition. Anytime someone approaches me for anything, I still basically audition for them. I don't call it that, but for me, that's what it is, because I want to make sure, even if they think that they want to work with me, I want to make sure that they're still happy with my voice and my performance in their context. Because they've heard my demos and like, oh yeah, I really like your stuff, blah, blah, blah, they'd love to work with you. And I'm like, that's great. But also, I don't know how many other people you're approaching. I don't know if my budget is gonna fit if if my rates are gonna fit your budget, how if we're going to work together, you know, your workflow might be completely different to mine. I try to, I try to, you know, accommodate as much as I can. But the first step is always going to be that initial audition. Because even just from that, um I I encourage lots of feedback so that in that sample stage you can really iron out things like pacing, tone. Um, like in the real fight recently, um, you know, Robert was super happy with all the samples. He was like, Do you go ahead, love everything, love it, love it, love, love, love it. But he wanted to, you know, give her parents some respect of listening to the recordings as well and and getting their thoughts and things. And I'm totally open to that, obviously. Like he's the rights holder, but we also want to make sure that her family is comfortable with how everything is, you know, portrayed. Um, and so her mother had some feedback on like she's a teacher as well. Um, and so she had some feedback on like the cadence of the narration slowing down the pace a little bit, things like that. Um, which is all totally valid feedback, and it might feel a bit weird for like for me to kind of like, okay, but that was my that was my take on it. Like, that's not helpful. So I'm like, great, good. Now I know I have a benchmark for how they're happy for it to sound, which means I can take that reference it whenever I'm feeling a bit weird, like we all have our days where sometimes we feel better than others. That can come through now performance as well. So I have like a benchmark to go back to of like this is the version they were happy with, I can kind of move forward with that. And then, yeah, with the pronunciations and stuff, I try to get as much of those out of the way before the process starts, like character voices, things like that, um, as possible. Inevitably, there's gonna be pickups or you know, stuff like that. Um, with my fiction stuff left. I I don't think it's common practice um for authors to get like a final approval of the audiobook, but I do if they if the publisher holds the rights, yeah. They'll just be like, this is what you get. Yeah, you've approved the first 15 minutes and then the rest of it, that's what you get. Um, I'm a I am a lot more collaborative in that way, where um I will encourage if people want to that they give it a final listen, make sure you're happy. If it and honestly, every single person who has gone through that process has been so completely reasonable. Um I could have communicated better on with with Ryan Birch on the last one because she was highlighting all these big gaps, and I'm like, it hasn't been edited yet. I'm so sorry. But but things like um, like, oh, I actually intended for uh this this particular line was actually like this kind of circumstance. And I'm like, oh yeah, totally, get it. I'll just do that as a pickup as well because I'm I'm already working through my other pickups too. So I bundle in those notes together. I'll like hold on um on doing all of my revisions and pickups for accuracy stuff because there might be something that needs to be fixed that they also had feedback on anyway.

unknown: 23:21

Yeah.

Amra Pajalic: 23:22

So that would kind of go into the same who might not have listened to audiobooks might not realize how much it is a performance. Because like the first time I listened to um Sandina's Dilemma and you narrating it, I was crying. I was crying. I was crying. Wasn't I crying? You were crying at certain points too, because we were both like, oh my god, that scene.

Nina Nikolic: 23:44

I don't know if there's been a book that I have not actually cried in the booth, and I think some of those tags ended up in the final.

Amra Pajalic: 23:50

Yeah, but there worked because that's what I did for my member. There were certain scenes where I was reading it out and I started crying, and I'm like, oh, you know, like I had that emotion. But for me, I was crying like because, you know, certain scenes, but I was just crying from the joy of, you know, like it's it's a medium where it is a performance. And so even though so I'm one of those people that, you know, I close my eyes and I see pictures in my head. And so for me, I love audiobooks because they are bringing the pictures to life for me. Um I love audiobooks also because you know, so many times you get the names wrong. Oh, yeah. You know, even recently um my daughter and I, she read Beloved, and then we were watching the movie, and she was like, Oh, that's Setha. Um she was like I was reading that as Steve. Yeah, Steve, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so it's like all the names that you don't realise. Like even uh recently my friend Um Blood Moon Bride, Demet, who I interviewed, and she's like Raya. And I'm like Raya. You know, so it's like that side of it, but then it's also the performances within where, as you said, you know, characters have voices and you develop like a personality, and and then when they're speaking, um, and you know, as as a writer, you're trying to remove as many speech tags as you can, because uh, you know, it shouldn't be every line he sent, she said, he sent, she sent there should be.

Nina Nikolic: 25:23

And sometimes you're and then as the narrator, sometimes you're trying to work out who who actually said what. Yes, because it would make sense knowing, like when you hear the character voice, but then also you're like, wait a second, yeah, we lost track. Yeah, and I lost track, I need to highlight everything. Um, yeah, totally. And I think in terms of the voices too, um like as a voice actor, you try to stretch, you know, your cadence, your voice, your pronunciations, all of those things to have a diverse enough range to kind of differentiate things. But most of the time, you know how people keep talking about voice acting is acting, darling. A lot of that just comes down to what is each character's demeanor. Because that will like inherently change the way that they speak and how they sound, and like if there's any if there's any notes on their physicality or um how they look, how they behave, those kinds of things will always inform what the voice kind of sounds like because you just kind of become that character is like a really zhuzy way to say it.

Amra Pajalic: 26:39

But I don't know, like that's the thing with it, you know, and when I'm writing it, I'm I'm imagining that character. And when you are performing it, you are bringing that to life. So it's it's the same thing in terms of you know the creative side, yes. Um, but there is there is so much to it, and I think these days, like, you know, there is the AI narration because some people don't care about voice and some people speed up and stuff like that. So they're like, you know, the AI is fine. Um, but for a lot of us, for me, I love the performance.

Nina Nikolic: 27:16

We actually want to connect to it as well. And the thing is, so like on the AI stuff, right? Like, I I love that for accessibility. I spoke to you about that. Like the thing is, especially if um the the problem isn't so much that it exists as a tool, it's how people use that tool in in ways that don't actually benefit humanity. Yeah. Like there's a benefit of like um for for people who want who can't do a narrator just yet for an official audiobook, would love to do it in future, but there are people who physically cannot read their book right now. Brilliant. Like that's a it's wonderful that that exists for them. And I think a lot of people kind of disregard that about it being available. Yes. Um, and then obviously the other problem is where those AI voices have come from, how they were developed, are they are they developed ethically, which a lot of the time to keep things that cheap, they haven't been, which is a whole other discussion that could take 4,000 million years. But at the end of the day, like I think the general consensus that I've seen is that only humans can connect with humans on that level. Yes. And so that's like it kind of depends what you want.

Amra Pajalic: 28:40

If you want the if you want like a team movie, you want it depends where you are and what exactly and what the purpose is, yeah, what the intention is. When I'm listening to an audiobook, I want that human narration. And for me, the voice is very important. Um, I've stopped audiobooks if the voice is there's only one that I pursued because I really liked the story. Yeah, yeah. Um and the voice was just like but I was like, oh my god.

Nina Nikolic: 29:07

I've heard that too, but then I became accustomed to it.

Amra Pajalic: 29:10

Yeah.

Nina Nikolic: 29:11

And I was like, oh, and now I'm kind of sad this is over. Like there's a point where you're like, oh now it's fine. Yeah, which was quite interesting. Like it it definitely took me a while to like get accustomed to it. And and that's the thing too, is like not every voice or every style is gonna be for everybody. No. Um yeah, I don't know, it's one of those things. And also with with characters, again, um getting it it's also interesting to see because like as the narrator, you want to make sure every single character has their like distinct voice or whatever. But the thing is, a lot of the time I've realized the author, there are some characters that aren't necessarily that important, which I don't know. Yeah, until you get to until I and yeah, and or until I hear from The author, like, because I don't know if there's gonna be more books in the series, I don't know which character is gonna become more prominent, stuff like that. So when I was working with Ryan, um, she sent me, I asked her for samples of like how do you picture these people sounding? And she actually found clips on YouTube of like various people that was like, I kind of imagine them sounding like in this realm. So there's more there, um, I can't remember, there was a sportswoman who I can't quite remember what her name was, but it was a more of that kind of um, you know, grounded tomboy kind of energy. Like, you know, when you see any like soccer roo from the women's team on the news talking about it's basically like that vibe, right? And I'm like, got it. I know those, I know those people, like understood. And then there's you know, an an influencer who's from like an influencer from Queensland or something that has her own particular way of speaking. She's like, I I picture this person speaking like that. Yeah. But I knew from the amount of samples that she sent me and who she sent me the samples for, that those were the ones that were the most important to focus on. And so therefore, if she didn't send me samples for other characters, they're probably not that much of a priority. And I can either take liberties with them if I feel like it, or like there's just a little bit more wiggle room there for how much emphasis to put on how distinct you make each of them, and how much each of those characters are gonna be in a scene together. And then, like, that was the the first round of feedback was like, oh, the two protagonists feel like they're too similar because it was a um lesbian romance. Oh, I so there's the two distinct. Yeah, so they really did need to like differentiate a bit more because they're gonna be in most of the book just talking to each other in dialogue. So it's like, okay, cool, I'll I'll have to like just mold this stuff, pull pull out aspects of things differently for each one. Um, and then yeah, do bring up a sample, great. Move on. So yeah, it's a fun process.

Amra Pajalic: 32:11

And also we'll we were talking about AI earlier. We had a bit of a kerfuffle, you and I, during the AI find away voices thing.

Nina Nikolic: 32:17

Oh, yeah, everyone had a kerfuffle.

Amra Pajalic: 32:20

Yeah, where where I was using, and I still I'm still using them, um, although they've changed names now, and all this, probably because of this. Yeah. Um, but they were called Find Away Voices, and I was using them as the distributor for my audiobooks, and then they um updated their contracts of service that they owned the rights to your voice, even though I was only giving And they were just selling them to Spotify.

Nina Nikolic: 32:43

Yeah, and now Spotify has a marketplace to create ads on Spotify for you. And I wonder where they get all of those voices from for that service. Yeah, so there's always um that that's the interesting. And then they kind of backpedaled and we're like, oh, but no, but that's not what we mean. And it's like, yeah, but we also can see, like, the thing is you can say that, but from what we're seeing, the fact that you tried to do this, and now you have this magical service that has come up for people to create ads for their business magically out of the blue with your AI and where did you get the tools from? Yeah, yeah.

Amra Pajalic: 33:21

It's just like, you know, uh Chat GPT, it sourced all these books that are you know copyright. And yeah, it's a great tool, but at the end of the day, it got the stuff, you know, from elsewhere and that needs to be addressed. Because if you know, I want to put um give the license for my books to be used in AI, I need to be compensated. If you are going to provide your voice where they're going to be cloning it and using it, you need to be compensated for that.

Nina Nikolic: 33:51

I've now had to start putting so in the back matter of the audiobooks. Um, I got the blessing of the the authors to do this and the rights authors to do this, but you know how there's like the copyright um back matter stuff. Thank you for listening. This is the end of this book written by so-and-so, narrated by Nina Nikolich. Um, the text version of this book was published in blah, blah, blah, copyright held by this person. No portion of this book may be used to reproduce blah blah blah. And I've also been adding no portion of this recording may be used to reproduce the narrator's voice without express written authorization from Nina Nikolich as well. So they have their like you can't use our material, and there is also you cannot use my voice print from this recording. Because now there there are services which I haven't I have not seen anyone else do that. I don't know if anyone else does that, but I felt that it was necessary to at least include it if I'm already doing that for the um content itself. Um, just as a failsafe, I guess.

Amra Pajalic: 34:55

Like Well, might may as well, because we know that that that has been happening. There have been attempts to do that. Even um there was a kerfuffle in the publishing world where um when AI licensing was available, publishers were trying to get authors to sign deals so they would get 50% of the AI licensing rights. And so it's like um, and now they're probably trying to add that to the boilerplate contract. And the problem is when you're new, you sign anything and you give away everything.

Nina Nikolic: 35:30

Well, especially when it becomes standard. Yes. In a lot of contracts, it has just become standard to put that stuff in there, and it makes you think as an artist and whatever, when every single contract you get has that verbiage in it, you're like, wait, can I contest this? Like, is this something that I can push back on when I negotiate? And it's like, yes, it is. You should. But the circumstances of every deal that we do, particularly with big publishers, big companies, all of these things, makes you feel like you don't have that leverage and you're not able to do that. And a lot of actors lost jobs during the strikes and things for that reason. They were like, I I don't consent to doing this, you know, screening process or whatever. And they're like, Great, don't come in tomorrow. We'll find someone else. Um, and so to that degree, it's kind of like, well shit, how do you, how do you then, as a little artist trying to make your way in the world in the world, gain enough leverage to be in Zendaya's shoes, who famously says, make sure you read every single one of your contracts, sit there with a highlighter, go through it with a fine-tooth comb, ask questions, push back, do all she's she's like talked about that numerous times. And I think that's one of the things that made me feel more empowered to um so thank you, Zendaya. Appreciate it. I don't know if she'll ever listen to this or not. Well dreamed, but we'll dream. But the fact that people in her position can come out and say those things, and she's so supremely successful and doing so, so well for herself, you know, knock on would we ever get to be in that position to have that much leverage to be able to say, no, I won't do this. We we need to fix this, I won't agree to it. We'll have to either add this, negotiate on that, blah, blah, blah. But the fact of the matter is that's business. Yes. That's part of like the hut we were talking about. Yes. Of like, you can't, as the artist, sit there and and feel like, oh, yeah, but if I don't agree, I'm not gonna get this job or whatever. And it's like, well, if you do agree, you might not get another job anyway, because you've done this for 250 bucks and it says perpetuity forever in the known universe and all current and forever universes in the multiverse.

Amra Pajalic: 37:57

Yeah, so that's that's the thing.

Nina Nikolic: 37:58

There's that existing or not.

Amra Pajalic: 38:01

But that's the thing, there is that um desperation, like and you know, like I my last um publishing contract, I had a friend read it and go through it and give me suggestions for asking for revisions. Um it didn't go well. And of course, it was like take it or leave it. And I I was like, okay, I'll I'll take it, that's fine, because um that contract has uh a time frame. Yes. So that they have got my licensing rights for a certain time. Yeah. And so that's the difference um now. But I I would uh part of the reason that I am now very much uh wanting to just um own all of my intellectual property and am not really, I'm not submitting anywhere, I'm not looking at any submission processes is because of that. Because the the templates that they offer you and what they offer you, they want to take everything and they want to close the door on you being able to do anything. They want to take your world rights, um, any digital rights, anything that's coming in the future, anything that might be.

Nina Nikolic: 39:18

It's like back in the old new Hollywood days when they were like, You're doing a 10-picture deal, darling. This is Hollywood, baby. And you're like, oh God, I hate it. Like you do picture one, you do picture two, and then they're shipping you around, and you're like, that's not doing this anymore.

Amra Pajalic: 39:35

No, it really is. And you know, the fact that technology is just constantly moving and evolving, um, and that when you own your intellectual property, that means you can exploit it in all these different new ways yourself. But as soon as um someone else uh you know licensing your rights and you're signing a contract where they have a lot more access, you're closing doors to yourself. And so even this book that I was working on, I I think I submitted it to a few um prizes. And then even though I submitted it to prizes, I was like, I don't think I want this prize. Because I'm like, if they take it, it's the first book in the series. And then, and and this happens to a lot of authors, which is like the worst thing, where they start publishing the series and then they're like, No, we don't think this is working for us, and then they stop publishing the series, but they've still got the rights to the first few books. No, and then if you do continue, um it's working to your disadvantage because if the first whatever books they've got are selling because of your doing the promotion, yeah, you'll never get the rights back to it.

Nina Nikolic: 40:47

So it's like this double money. It's like a loophole. I actually have heard similar stuff like that. Or even like, for example, I think it was like during the writer's strike or something, there were some guys who were still working on on writing a film script. I can't remember which film it was, it's like on the peripheral on the peripheral somewhere. But it it just seems so absurd. Like if you're not sitting in a writer's room, I I don't know what the circumstances were, so don't quote me on this internet. But um I it it's almost like like just because actors were on strike, it doesn't mean that they weren't acting in general, they just weren't actively working on productions that were being struck. And with writing, the discourse around it almost felt like people were reprimanding these guys for writing at all when it was that their hands were tied for writing on a particular project or something. I think they were probably writing on that project, that's why that discourse kind of happened. But it felt like people were saying, like, you must put the pen down and you must not pick it. And it's like, but then how do you maintain your craft throughout that period? It's like being on hiatus for you know a year or God knows how long it's gonna take for them to get out of stuff, and then you have to like jump back on the horse and be like, okay, God, how do I it's been a while, I've got to work these muscles again, you know. Um, and also for some of us, uh you're probably in the same boat, it doesn't stop.

Amra Pajalic: 42:32

Our creativity doesn't stop. It's it's actually like we need that outlet to live. And you have to use it when it comes. Yes, like you need to release, yeah, because otherwise you start ruining your creative process. Um, because now, the past few years, I have been freer than I have ever have. Thank you, Perry Menapause. Yeah. Um there's been a lot of terrible things that you did to me. A lot of terrible things that you did, but the one thing that you have given me um is this ability to just not care. To just do things and release them and just whatever happens, happens. I see what that's where the best work comes from.

Nina Nikolic: 43:15

Yeah. I'm not gonna lie. I do feel like in general, the auditions that have been the most successful, that there's a thing in like the voice actor world specifically of like the set and forget mentality of the ones that you just kind of throw away are like the ones that always work out. Like you you'll be sick as a dog, and this audition comes in, and you're just like, all right, I'm just gonna do this. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna do what I can and I'm gonna send it. And then you get the role and you're like, How? Did you think that this was and it's because you didn't overwork it. You didn't um you didn't painstakingly labor over every detail. Like there's there's a difference between like painstakingly laboring over the the intricacies of of you know getting the little details in the clay kind of thing. But in terms of slapping the clay on the like that, I I think that there's like a different a fundamental difference there of like overconcerning yourself with how it's going to be received, yes, versus just like throwing pain at the wall and just being in the moment and doing that stuff.

Amra Pajalic: 44:34

Like the sweetest gigs that have been for me, where I just get this inspiration for an article. I sit down, bang it out in 30 minutes. That's where how my blog's gonna come, leave them for a day, do a bit of a proofread, yeah. Um write up a pitch and just email it. Yeah. And then two days later I'm like, then we get an acceptance. I'm like, oh, oh, I'm a genius. Yeah. But there is something about just following that thread of inspiration. Yes. And, you know, just things, you know, releasing things and just see what comes back. And then also I've gotten to this point now where I've always got something out on a submission. I'm sure you're listening. Well, you've always got something out there. And then recently I had um a journal go, you know, we've accepted it for publication. I couldn't remember what it was. Yes, that's what I should be. I was like, I just have to wait.

Nina Nikolic: 45:31

That's why. I log everything. Yeah. Like everything I submit, I log it. And even then, sometimes I can't find what I'm doing. And it's so it's so funny having this discussion because I was about to say, like, I it feels it's it's so different when you're like you set up a goal and you're like, okay, I'm going to write one blog post per month. And then it doesn't come, and you're like, oh shh. But then there's an um, this is this is credit to Amy Smith, who's like one of my voice acting like coaches who's like super polyfaking games. You should check her out, she's awesome. Um, but she is was also a primary school teacher and was very adamant on goal setting and having your smart goals and doing all that stuff, which which is actually a structure that you need to surround your inspiration, I feel like. Because if you just have inspiration and and throw it out there and whatever, it's like cool, you're doing something, but also you kind of lose track of what it is you're building. Yeah. I feel like my goals feed into this weird like manifestation process.

Amra Pajalic: 46:39

I was just talking to someone about that. Really? Yeah, yeah. Because I I wrote my goals for the first time this year and actually printed them out. Yeah. Uh because my daughter does it, she's been doing it for the report. Yeah, so we just sat down and we were doing it together, and then she's a little bit more. I was considering maybe doing that for next year. And then I I was looking at it recently and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm I'm actually nearly on track with achieving all of them. There's one of them I'm like, I don't care. I had this goal and I was going to weigh myself every month, but that is never ever.

Nina Nikolic: 47:12

Oh, yeah, you yeah. You it's like you you do it with the best intentions. Yes. But then you're like, oh, actually, my weight doesn't actually matter. It's how I feel. Yes. Or whatever.

Amra Pajalic: 47:20

And the other thing is I've realized you can't control, like, I will have this many articles published. Yes. I will have this many books published. I can control how many articles I will pitch. Yes. I can control, you know, my output and what I will try. I can't control what will be picked up. Yeah. And so I've learned, like, you know, to make it about that. It's like um, you know, to submit to, to, you know, to do these things. Um so even like that one about the weight, it's not about the weight. What it is about is the exercising. Yes. And so I have been maintaining that. I have been maintaining that almost daily, um, you know, exercising, stamina and stuff. And so it's not about the weight because the weight, um, you know, as a woman, we're constantly fluctuating. Oh my god, yeah, yeah. You I I get sick and I know that, you know, I've put on for two weeks. Yeah. And I'm like, I I do not want to see that number. I can see it in the mirror. Thank you very much. I don't need that depression. Yeah. You know, um, but and so I was talking to someone recently and I said, I almost feel like, oh my god, you're you're having so many things happening, so much is going on. Um, but you mean I'm always working at it. And I said that there comes a point where it's almost like I've been I've been running like that mouse on the on the middle. Churning and churning and churning, and now it's become cream. Um, but it's you know, all of the work underneath, and also at this point, it's almost like it's not me. There's like this almost like something's taking over me.

Nina Nikolic: 48:57

Some otherworldly thing is happening and things are just coming, and you're like, huh. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Like I I had to take a bit of a backseat recently and be like, like, I felt awful because I was like, I haven't been, I haven't been doing any marketing, I haven't been doing my cold contacts. Amy's gonna, Amy's gonna ring me a new one. She always tells me I have to do my marketing, I have to do my marketing. But I was so busy. I had so much work to do. I had all those books to catch up on from when I was sick. I had all this stuff that I needed to do. And I was like, okay, I'm just going to let go, get the stuff done that I have to get done. But there's definitely this thing that has been happening. I actually have something really funny that I was actually considering writing a blog post about, which was in this manifestation goal setting vein. In my coaching session with Amy, she was like, Yeah, just start submitting to rosters and agents and get on those audiobook rosters. Like the ultimate for us is like we want Blackstone Publishing to come to us and ask us to audition. We want people in Random House to hire us for books and all these things and be on their roster, right? So you have to go through that process the same way as your submissions. You're like, hello, I'm a narrator. Here's my work, here's stuff about me, like here's here's why I would love to be on your roster. This is what makes me different. And you sit there and you're submitting and submitting and submitting. And to this day, I think there's maybe one or two rosters that I've been on. One of them um I finally uh got a book with, um, which was Thrive Audio. So that book is currently in in progress to come out, which I was like so grateful. Sarah is like the best. She runs Thrive Audio, and every time I've auditioned, she's like, You are my top pick. But the author ultimately went in another direction, which happens, that's fine. But she was so in my corner all the time. And I think she's been one of the really like hands-on producers that I just adore working with her truly. I was working with Amy on um on like you know, my goals and stuff, and she's like, You should be applying to all of things, audiobook rosters and things. And the thing is that I'll come to back to the marketing thing in a second, but um all of these rosters like still won't take me. And you don't know what the reason is. You don't know if it's they that they think they have people who already sound like me, if I'm not experienced enough, maybe I haven't released enough books for them to be interested in me, whatever it is, it it doesn't really matter. But the the main thing is not yet fine, no worries. However, in the process of doing that stuff, it gets me to update my samples. It has me updating my website, updating all of my other profiles, um, practicing reaching out to people and pitching myself, um, having ideas to post blogs on social media and having building that snowball piece by piece to move forward, which ultimately ended up manifesting you reaching out to me to do your books, Ryan Birch reaching out to me to do her books, Robert finding me to do his books. So while all of these publishers are not allowing me to audition for their stuff, I don't get a lot of auditions, but I do get people coming directly to my inbox to hire me for the rate that I have set, which is, mind you, a lot more than the MEAA equity rates that they have agreed on, which are incredibly low, the lowest in the world, barely livable if you actually calculate it by the hour, it is not minimum wage, even, um, which is why my rate is what it is, because I have done the meticulous calculations and found that it is like a somewhat livable, at least a minimum wage for that work, which sounds like a lot when you're pitching it, but when you break it down into like what everything involves, I'm like, I know what my value is and I know that that's what it is. So thank you. But also that one recorded hour of video, that is hours behind. Oh, yeah. It would be anywhere between like five and ten or twelve, like depending on how much you're nitpicking at it, how many revisions you need to do, um, you know, re-revising the editing, whatever it is. If you're paying someone else to edit it, like that can add to the cost too. Um, so yeah, all of those things. But then with the marketing side of it, I've started realizing I had this discussion with my mum the other day when I said that I was going through that thing of like, I hate this marketing thing. I just want to talk to people. Like, I hate that. Because the thing is that there are a lot of creatives who aren't on social media that you can't actually reach. So the only way to reach them is to send them that shitty email that's just like, hey guy, I you might not know who I am, but I love your work. It's really cool. I'd love to work with you sometime. Anyway so thank you. Bye.

Amra Pajalic: 53:57

And that is so hard, that putting yourself so hard. Like I'm I'm uh I've had a lot of practice now. Yeah. And I am better at it, but I still kind of need to set up these steps for myself where it's like I have to do this thing first. So so for example to make it feel notchy. Yes. So for this podcast that I want to do a history podcast, I'm like, well, at some point I'm gonna need to approach people that I want to work on it with me, but I needed to do this podcast and get the practice and get the comfort zone to be able to even conceive the thought of approaching these people. Um, because I'm like, you know, these are historians or authors or you know, survivors, and it's like this whole thing of I need to be able to be like, I have got runners on the board that I am a credible person to be able to say I can do this. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And and so it is it's that psychological aspect, and then it's also just doing the bloody thing, yeah, and even in the shop.

Nina Nikolic: 55:04

And you hear all the time like celebrities and interviews being like, they're like, How did you come across this role? And they're like, like Robert Pattinson, he'll just be like, I love these directors. And I emailed them and was like, I love your shit, man. And then they said they had a thing for me. Like, and the thing is, it might have to be a two-way thing. They might have to be a fan of Robert Pattinson too, know that he's an incredible actor, and be a fan of his, know that he has the reach that he has or the familiarity with audiences that he has, whatever it is. But you can still find those people at your level, so to speak. But I so prefer, I realized I was incredibly scared of talking to people in person, taking their time, like doing all that kind of stuff. But I love it so much more. And I started learning that. Like I used to be afraid of, I used to be a phone scared person, like not liking talking to people on the phone. And now I'm like, I actually like this so much better because we can get more things out in the open and exchange more ideas and get a better sense of each other. And if ultimately we don't, we aren't, we don't quite connect, that's great. Yeah, I think it was still time well spent. But then I find more quickly who the people that I really do want to gravitate to and work with and all that kind of stuff. And I was telling mom how I was like, I do all this LinkedIn stuff, but I don't think it works for me. And I don't think I've like anything has come from it. And ultimately, you are trying to get work, you're trying to collaborate to people, you're trying to pay pay bills and all these things, but I want to do that with people I enjoy doing it with. And I think that made the difference for me was instead of just kind of shilling out these emails of like, hello, I do this, here's my demo, hello, I do this, here's my demo, hello, I do this, here's my demo. I don't just want to do that because ultimately they are my demo is going to have to suit something that they have going on, which is a separate conversation. So while I do still have to do that, that's just part of the business, and I kind of have to be okay with doing that part. It's kind of like the what was it, Scorsese or someone who was like one for them, one for me. I yes, yes. That's kind of my approach to marketing now. Yeah. Where it's kind of like the one for them is like the one I have to do. Yeah. The one for me is like, I love this person's work, they're an incredible creative mind. I I would kill to touch what they what the the aura that they have or whatever it is, and and just meet them, chat, whatever. If something comes up, awesome, but I I feel so much better when I have a rapport with someone that I genuinely like their work. And I like surrounding myself with people that by osmosis I just feel nourished by.

Amra Pajalic: 57:43

Yes, and that's the thing, you want to spend time with people who really do inspire you. Yeah. Um, because that's also it's about this creative life is the creating, but it's also just feeding yourself, feeding your soul in a sense, so you've got that and those moments.

Nina Nikolic: 58:02

And sometimes that's not even so much just like getting along with people. Like I can I can still make incredible work with people that we might not on a personal level, like vibe or hang out or whatever. Like we won't like go to coffee and just talk for three hours or whatever. But we can go to coffee, exchange really cool ideas, get in the booth together, make something really cool. Like, not every person that you work with, even creatively, has to be your person. Yes, but it does help to have people that are your people that also you can make incredible art with to like supplement and feed the other relationships that you have too. Yeah, because that whole ecosystem. Yeah, which is like that all the whole manifesting thing to me. Like I was like this this manifesting thing feels really like woo-woo and whatever, but there is actually a structure to it that results in this thing called manifestation.

Amra Pajalic: 58:54

And I think um, since I've started doing uh posts every year, doing reflective posts and looking at what I have achieved. That's really helped because you know it's just it's about what have I achieved? It's what have I done in the year, just making every year sort of count that I am scratching, that I am trying.

Nina Nikolic: 59:13

I need to get better at doing that's one thing I need to get better at doing is like my review stuff because my weekly review has just basically become a six-hour block where I can finally tick off shit that I haven't had time that now in the review I've seen that I haven't done all these things. Yes. So I'm not looking at what I have done, I'm looking at what I haven't done yet, and I'm like, oh yeah, I should do that. And I start doing it. And then six hours later, I'm like, I haven't reviewed anything, I'll just keep working.

Amra Pajalic: 59:38

Yeah, I don't but I finally get it done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I started doing like a weekly writing update. Oh, okay. And I've stopped on a little bit because um I've been just done well and things. But I'm like, I really liked that, just the weekly thing for myself. But then yeah, at the end of the year, and the one thing that I've found that has been the best thing I've ever done is the news and events page on my website. site and so that um all the news is just in the one place so when I'm doing a review at the end of the year I'm just like it's all there you can see what yeah it's all there all the things that I've done that are like my news and then events that I've done.

Nina Nikolic: 1:00:13

Like your accomplishments are basically chronicled for you.

Amra Pajalic: 1:00:16

It's all chronicled for me and then like I do a blog post and I hyperlink it. And so then at the end of the year I'm just like I could just pull it out and I can go well that has been good. And so that's um every year I've been like okay moving. Well I mean this has been such a great conversation I've been on forever to go on but without the camera now we're gonna have lunch and we're gonna give each other.

unknown: 1:00:42

Yeah.

Amra Pajalic: 1:00:42

But thank you so much we were going to do this catch up anyway. So um so much great stuff in terms of thinking about the creative life and and the other side of it. And there's so many commonalities. Yeah.

Nina Nikolic: 1:00:53

And I'll have to come back next time so we can talk about tools.

Amra Pajalic: 1:00:56

Yes we're looking to and then we just you know so next time we'll do the small business part of it. Yes yeah yeah okay thank you thank you for tuning into Amra's armchair anecdotes if you enjoyed today's episode don't forget to subscribe and follow for more insights stories and inspiration from my armchair to yours remember every story begins with a single word