Building an indie literary life: A conversation with Koraly Dimitriadis

We sit with poet and filmmaker Koraly Dimitriades to unpack gatekeeping, creative autonomy, and how to build a writing life that answers to the work, not the establishment. From founding a press to touring internationally, we share tactics, hard truths, and why protecting your voice matters.

• founding an indie press to keep creative control
• questioning “literary merit” through a colonial lens
• using zines, bookshops and data to secure distribution
• choosing offset vs print on demand for touring
• negotiating rights and asking about real marketing budgets
• moving from mainstream op-eds to social media for voice
• speaking truth, blacklisting and mental health boundaries
• targeting prizes and festivals that suit your style
• nontraditional sales channels and grassroots marketing
• redefining success and separating money from art
• community, nuance and sustaining a long career

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Welcome to Amra’s Armchair Anecdotes! I’m Amra Pajalić—writer, teacher, and storyteller. Pull up a chair, and let’s dive into stories about writing, life, and lessons learned—sharing wisdom from my armchair to yours.

Episodes are posted every second Monday.

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Episode show notes are transcripts at https://www.amrapajalic.com/podcast.html

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome & Guest Intro
• 0:32 Coralie’s Beginnings & Poetry Breakthrough
• 3:12 Gatekeeping, Merit, and Colonial Lenses
• 9:52 Founding a Press & Taking Back Control
• 13:22 Distribution, Bookshops & Print Strategies
• 18:00 Speaking Truth, Backlash & Mental Health
• 22:10 Media Shifts, Social Platforms & Voice
• 27:28 Rights, Contracts & Power in Publishing
• 32:00 Prizes, Touring & International Leverage
• 37:20 Programming, Fit & Choosing Your Rooms
• 41:20 Creative Marketing & Non‑traditional Sales
• 47:10 Redefining Success & Separating Money from Art
• 52:20 Community, Nuance & Staying the Course
• 54:29 Closing & Listener CTA

Transcript

Amra Pajalic: 0:00

Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. I'm Amra Pailich, writer, teacher, and storyteller. Pull up a chair and let's dive into stories about writing, life, and lessons learned. Sharing wisdom from my armchair to yours. You can find the episode show notes, your free episode handouts, and my how-to guides at amrage.com slash podcast. And now it's time to dive in. Welcome to Amra's Armchair Anecdotes. Today I'm interviewing Coralie Dimitriades. She's a Cypriot Australian poet, filmmaker, freelance writer, and founder of Outside the Box Press. She's actually the one who gave me the idea to start my own imprint. Yes, you're full of good ideas. Her breakout collection, Love and Fuck Poems, became a bestseller. So we've got it there. Translated into Greek, was longlisted for the UK Poetry Book Awards. And in 2025, she won Best Book of Narrative Poetry at the Legacy Book Awards. She followed it with Just Give Me the Pills and She's Not Normal, cementing her reputation as one of Australia's boldest poetic voices. Coralie's short story collection, The Mother Must Die, was published by Puncher and Watman in 2024. And her opinion writing, of which there are over 160 pieces, have appeared in The Guardian, The Age, Al Jazeera, The Washington Post, and more. She's also a filmmaker, and her poetry films have screened on SBS On Demand at the Sydney Opera House, International Festivals, have earned multiple awards, including the Monologues and Poetry International Film Festival at the USA. She's a fearless creative. She moves between the page and the stage and screen, uses her art at small business platform to challenge taboos, celebrate identity, and inspire women to speak the truth. Thank you so much for coming on my podcast. Thanks for having me. So you are someone that I have been incredibly inspired by, I just have to tell you. Wow. Because you have really forged your own path. You have really created your own artistic journey and just pursued what your art is and just let it speak for itself. So could you take us back a little bit and tell us about your, you know, the beginning for you?

Koraly Dimitriadis: 2:34

Yeah, um, well, I always wanted to be an artist, but I wasn't really allowed to pursue it because I had very kind of strict migrant parents. But um, when I got older and after I had my daughter, I just something inside me snapped and I just decided to pursue my dream. And it came with poetry. Um, the the poetry became kind of like the liberation, but I was also writing a novel in um secret before that that um is still not published, but will be published one day, I'm sure. And um I just noticed when I came onto the art scene that um while I was feeling very repressed by my culture and I saw art as or the art sector as my liberation, I s I very quickly became aware that I was trying to be that that powers were trying to silence me, were not being appreciative of my of the way I was writing, we're were frowning at the way I was writing, and that it wasn't like proper literary standards. And um, and so I when I wanted to publish Love and F poems, I um I didn't even send it to publishers. I just did it on my own as a zine, and then it started selling very well, and then I turned it into a book and I started outside the box press. And um yeah, just I think I fluctuated through my whole career of trying to appease the establishment and and wasted a lot of time trying to do that, you know, waiting years and years for publishers to get back to me about my my poetry books and then getting rejected, and then just realizing that my books weren't getting published at the time that I wanted them to be published. So uh I've made a decision in the last few years to only publish my poetry through my own press and not to send it to publishers. But with my other books like fiction, I'm still pursuing those avenues and I still work with industry, but because I have my own press with its own distribution in a way I'm not answerable to industry because I always have that to fall back on. Even for my fiction, if at the end of the day I can't find a publisher, I will do it through my press. And so having that power to fall back on, my own press, um, has made me um, you know, not as scared to say what I want to say and and do what I want to do. However, having said that, it does still come as a price when you at a price when you say things that the establishment don't like.

Amra Pajalic: 5:24

Yeah, I mean, I don't think many people realise, um, but for those of us who have been on the publishing scene, it is quite a small scene. Everyone kind of knows each other, you get known uh around by people, and you know, there is certain expectations in terms of writing and publishing and perception and presenting yourself. And um, you know, like I think that when we come from a multicultural background, our themes and the things that we write about are just they normal to us. This is what we write about, these are the people that we know, and then there's this perception of you know, it's gritty writing, it's um these things, and so sometimes that can be the difficult thing.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 6:11

Yeah, and and I I would say because I I do do a lot of touring um thanks to funding from the Syria government, and I spend a lot of time in Europe and Cyprus, and the more time I spend there, like for example, recently I went to a poetry event in Cyprus, and all the poets that were performing had a similar style or rawness to their poetry. And as I was sitting there, I was thinking, it's the colonial powers here that say that our writing doesn't meet literary merit because their perception of literary merit is a colonial perception. And actually, my writing stems from my ancestry because the poets that I'm around in Cyprus are writing like me. And so, you know, when that when you submit to prizes and publishers and all that, and and you see this term in Australia, I'm talking now, because in Australia our sector is very removed from the rest of the world. In Europe, it's a completely different perception. So when you're here and you see that term, oh, we only accept manuscripts of the highest literary merit, you go, no, what you're saying to me is you accept manuscripts through a colonial lens of writing, and you're not going to publish me because I don't sound like that. And I'm not gonna go to university and be taught to write like that because that's what they do. They teach you this is the proper way to write, which is a colonial way to write. And I'm not saying that other cultures don't get published, they do, but it's a very tokenistic view. Oh, we've got to have our from this culture and that culture, and you know, well, the Greeks have had their days, so you know, we don't have to choose someone from that culture. And so that's how they view their literary merit. It's very colonial and tokenistic.

Amra Pajalic: 7:57

And that's because, you know, let's be honest here, who are the people who are working in the publishing industry? What background? You know, there's not enough um diversity there because it is not accessible for people, you know, these days for anyone to get a job as an editor, um, which is becoming harder and more thankless because there is constriction in the industry. There's the expectation of doing unpaid internships. Who can afford to do that? You and me wouldn't have been able to afford to do that. We were out there um, you know, very early on in our lives, working, having to pay mortgages. Um, and so it's very limiting about who can access those opportunities and who has uh the ability to kind of keep pushing through some of those burdens.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 8:44

And and not just that as well, but the the people that they choose to be these editors and that, they're people that are conducting themselves in a way that the establishment likes. You know, they're not going to put me, you know, as an as an editor, for example, of an established literary journal because like I don't conduct myself or I the way a good literary citizen in Australia should conduct themselves. So it's it's also that in that way as well, these positions of of power, you know, who who are they, who are they putting there?

Amra Pajalic: 9:22

Yeah, you know, and there's also just the reality of, because I have a lot of friends who are also of you know, Anglo-Celtic background who are writing crime fiction novels, and just the way that the industry, even then, like some of them are best-selling authors, and they don't hear from the editors, they don't get told about things that are going on just because of the fact that publishing houses are underfunded, they've got so many books coming through. Um, and then there are certain people who become, you know, bestsellers and develop those longer, deep relationships. And then uh, yeah, there's there's just the reality on the ground of these days, the publishing industry.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 10:04

Yeah, and I just want to add to what I was saying because um, yes, like maybe when I started my career 15 years ago, the industry was more better funded and um there were more opportunities. Now we're just seeing a shrinking of the arts as a whole around the world. We're getting more censorship in the arts as well than there ever has been before. Um, and because, you know, if I look at America, for example, we get a lot of you know, the ways that we do things in Australia, we get a lot of that from America. So we're getting a culmination of this, what we were talking about before and the way the industry works. Plus, on top of that, now the realities of being in the arts, underfunded, censored. It's, you know, I really do feel for the newer generation coming through in this space. And, you know, I mentor a lot of writers, younger writers as well. And I have to, I don't want to be one of those teachers that says that doesn't say what the realities are. I have to say them what the realities are. I don't want to waste people's time. I wasted a lot of my time trying to figure all this stuff out, you know. So um, yeah, I mean, I'm not saying don't go into the arts if that's what you want to do, but being aware of the realities, but there's also a lot of opportunity for for you if you know you think outside the box. As an artist should.

Amra Pajalic: 11:30

And that's that's the thing. We have both. Like I had a beautiful apprenticeship to the publishing industry where my first book, I did not realize how hard it was because I submitted my first book to a prize, um, the Twin Premier's Prize for an unpublished manuscript. I got shortlisted. Um, I got uh publishers giving me their business cards at the ceremony because they used to do these beautiful, amazing ceremonies and announcements and stuff. Um I got top agent in a Curtis Brown. I had my agent submit it to five publishers. I had two offers. Wow. Um got published, had beautiful reviews, global financial crisis happened, and splat went.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 12:18

What year was that? 2009. Yeah, so yeah, think about that, what what the situation is.

Amra Pajalic: 12:24

That was so long ago now. And then it kind of just got harder and harder, and I still had um still got traditionally published, but it just got to a point where, like you, um, all this time spent waiting and giving other people our intellectual property, not having control, uh facing constraints, uh, it became, and also I was getting rights back to books that I had had published. Um, and I was like, well, may as well. Um and now I am personally of the view, and I think you agree with me, that being an independently published authors is the only way to get a viable income as an artist these days, because even if you are traditionally published, you get very small advances, and only do you earn royalties if you've paid back those advances. Um, I wanted to pick up something that you were talking about earlier, which is that you had your own distribution for your books. And that's the thing, when you are an Indie author, you have to take on board all of the marketing, all of the distribution, all of the business side of it. So could you talk us through um how this evolved and where where it's at and some lessons?

Koraly Dimitriadis: 13:42

Um, so I have worked with publicists, so I've hired publicists occasionally, they are expensive. I was lucky early in my career I had um some publicers that wanted to work with me and believed in what I was doing and did it at like a cheaper rate. I don't think these days that's possible with the high cost of living. But the way that I got a distributor, so I've got a national distributor for Australia, New Zealand Woodslang, was that um, you know, my poetry book, Love and F Poems, I just put it in um like one or two bookshops. And uh especially with the bookshop Colliester books on Brunswick Street, it doesn't exist anymore. But they were just selling a lot of the books. And so I then went to other bookshops and said, Oh, look, this bookshop is selling out of my books. Can you order my books? And then they just kind of become jealous of each other, like, oh, that bookshop's got it. Well, maybe I should get it. And then, you know, it um it just started like a chain reaction of and you know, have a huge spreadsheet to keep a track of all my books and who had my books and this and that. And then I was able to take that data to um distributors, and there are only, I think, like 10 distributors in Australia. And I tried them all, and they all said no, except for Woodslang, who was like, Oh, we don't even do poetry, but there's something about you, we'll give it a go. And you know, you only need one person sometimes to say yes, and always remember that that's one of the things I teach my students all the time. You only need one person to say yes. And um, yeah, they've been distributing my books for like over 10 years now. They're very supportive of my work, and um, they're also started up a pub a publishing press as well. So um, you know, they've gone from distributor and publisher to publisher as well. Um, so yeah, it's um they're they're not like they're more of an academic distributor than a literary distributor, like then literary distributors. Well, I'm not literary. How can love and f columns be literary? Um, you know, so I was with um an academic, you know, distributor and and it worked out.

Amra Pajalic: 15:58

And also one of the things that you did was you actually um said there's two ways that we can do printing and publishing as independent authors. We can do the on-demand through Ingram Spark, which means a higher cost per book. Yes. Or you can do offset printing where you print a few thousand copies and the unit um price for each one is much cheaper. And so that's what you did with the distributor. So you were able to. Do you still do that or what's the process now?

Koraly Dimitriadis: 16:27

Um now that print on demand is actually relatively um on par with um offset actually. So um Eevee's a bit cheaper to go offset, and I um have done multiple print runs. I I could do um with the with the print on with the offset I was doing, I could do 600 copies. Um, and you know, I've done quite a few um print runs that way, but in the last few years, um, print on demand has just worked better for me because I tour a lot. So what that means is if if I'm in Cyprus, I can print my books in in Europe and get them shipped to me rather than do a print run of say 600, have them delivered to Australia and then have to take them overseas. It just doesn't suit me anymore now with all the traveling I have to do. I mean, if even if like say I've got a gig in Germany, which I did, I I just I just printed books and sent them right to the gig, you know, so that reduces my costs of um having to, you know, post yeah, because books, yeah, local printing, local postage.

Amra Pajalic: 17:38

Yeah. And we know that sending anything from Australia is so expensive. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I was wondering, um, you know, maybe if you wouldn't mind sharing uh a memory of when speaking your truth got you in trouble, but you knew you had to stand by it. Um, but you know, if you're not okay with that, that's okay.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 18:03

Um, look, I mean, you know, it's speaking my truth has been um a journey in and of itself because there have been times where I've spoken my truth and I've gotten blacklisted, and um, you know, and and the the first time I got really blacklisted, uh, you know, I it really affected my mental health. Um, and I, you know, it it stopped me from writing what I wanted to write for a really long time. And I've got a lot of um poetry that I just never showed anyone, you know, that that I I I feel will come up in my in my next poetry collection, which is about um, it's called Um That's What They Do, and it's about um emotional abuse, but all the different ways a person can experience emotional abuse, one of which is through their workplace. And um, you know, but after I went through that experience, I just know I I came to this point where I was like, Coralie, either, you know, give up or or or do what you want to do. Because this in-between space was held. It was like, you know, kind of writing, but not writing what I want to write and trying to appease with being scared. And so I just I just made a decision that I'm just gonna go for it because I had I had already had that scar, that Exxon might on me. So, you know, um, and now when I publish things that um I know are controversial, I'm not I'm not as scared. And if I do publish something that I think I maybe I shouldn't have said that I might take it down and then reflect on it and then think, oh, you know, I don't want to say that because I can't be bothered with the black backlash of it, you know, because at the end of the day, I have I'm a human and I have to worry about my own my own mental health. So when people look at me and think, oh, she's such a fearless writer, I actually don't say a lot. And it's not because I don't, I don't want to say it and I won't ever say it. It just means right at that point I don't feel comfortable saying it, but it might come up in a book in a year or two or three. And that's what I teach my students. It's sometimes it's not the right time to say what you want to say, but that doesn't mean you never have to say it.

Amra Pajalic: 20:24

And that's the joy of the artist artistic life. We just keep collecting things, collect, you know, collecting um and writing and having things, and then as you said, it's eventually like, well, this is going to be the body of the work. Yes. This is going to be the theme that it sort of evolves under and and you know, develops under. Um, I think we've spoken before also, you know, in terms of your freelance writing, like, you know, you've got over uh 160 pieces published, but you actually were getting published overseas more than you were getting published in Australia. And that's how you sort of build up your body of work.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 20:59

Yeah, I I think no, I was I was published in Australia more, but I think when I started getting those um runs on the board overseas, that helped me get more stuff published in Australia because in Australia there's this, it's really bad, but there's this the industry operates in this way of like, oh, well, she's getting runs on the board overseas, so we better publish her here. But if I didn't have those runs on the board, then maybe I wouldn't have got those opportunities here. So there's there's that to consider as well. With and you know, it's a reality of the Australian publishing industry or media industry, because I think we're so far removed from the rest of the world that if someone somehow makes a splash overseas, then they must, you know, have must be good. So yeah. Um, but these days actually I don't really publish um opinion, and that's because the media has changed so much in the last few years. The last few times I've been published by mainstream media, I just haven't been happy with the result because they edit me, they don't, they they cut things without even asking me, you know, and then I end up with this article that isn't a reflection of what I wanted to say. And so now I've moved over to social media, mainly TikTok and Instagram, mostly TikTok, to just make videos about my views because then I can just say what I want to say. And yes, I'm not getting paid, you know, but I'm also increasing my platform, which means I'm selling books as well. Um, and it's not as much money as getting published in in the media, but for me, I don't care. I would rather say make money teaching and saying what I want to say, and um and and that makes me happy. I don't, I don't, I I spent so many years of my life, you know, in a very repressive kind of culture, you know, married at 22 and you know, not feeling able to say what I want to say. And so as an adult now, I just think, well, life is too short. And if I'm gonna be an artist, I want to do it my way and I want to say what I want to say.

Amra Pajalic: 23:04

Yeah, like what you're talking about, I've I'm very pragmatic. When I get things published and they edit, I just accept all. I don't care. I'm like paycheck. Yeah, you know, and so it's like you really have to decide where is your energy, which is, you know, is it about like what you're wanting to say and the fact that once you're being paid for, there is that compromise that comes into it. There is that um sensoristic that comes into it, the lens that it sort of needs to fit. Um, or and you know, like you I'm slowly sort of moving away from wanting that too, um, where it's like it's it's about that freedom and about, yeah, like not where's the opportunities? Where do you want to put the energy?

Koraly Dimitriadis: 23:51

And also I found it demoralizing because I found that a lot of the times the editors make me feel like there's something wrong with me, like I'm somehow not writing properly because I'm not pitching ideas or saying things the way they want me to say it. But really, if you look at it more closely, the media has been, you know, compromised in the last at least five years. I remember when I first started writing opinion, I was getting like three articles published a week, and I was just saying whatever I wanted to say. You know, now they make you feel like, oh, there's something wrong with your writing. That's why you're not getting published. No, it's not that. And for a while I thought it was that, and then I was like, no, hang on a minute. Like the media is so compromised. And I've been saying it for years and years and years, and now, now we're seeing it clearly how how it's compromised. We can see it clearly, you know.

Amra Pajalic: 24:47

So that clash and the censorship that's happening. And you know, if we look at the Bendigo Writers Festival and all of the authors, um, I'm so proud of them, like who were given these uh agreements that they were supposed to sign about what they would say and what they would talk about on stage and refused because enough's enough. Yeah. You know, and uh there's finally that acknowledgement. Um, but even with with publishing, I agree with you because I I was experiencing the same thing where I would be submitting books that I really believed in and that I'd spent time on and it just wasn't getting anywhere. And so in the first few years would be like, it's me. These books aren't wood, um, they're not worth it. And then in in some instances, you know, things would would get published elsewhere or extracts would get published elsewhere. And I'm like, well, is it really not good? Or is it just not fitting, you know, what what what perception is or what's popular or what they think that's it's selling at the time. And uh now I've gotten to the point where I don't even submit anymore to the traditional publishing scene. Um, because you know what we were talking about earlier, in terms of the contracts that they ask you to sign, you're giving away world rights. Um even though they might not be exploiting your world rights. They will only be publishing it in Australia and maybe New Zealand. And so you're giving up rights that then you can't exploit. Um, and it's like, you know, if we publish it on demand, we will get a few sales overseas, you know, depending on our marketing efforts, but it will. There will be some people buying it overseas. And that is so amazing when you see it on your Ingram Spark dashboard where it's like, oh, someone in France bought a copy of my book. Oh my gosh, someone in Germany did, you know, like these things are just so exciting and so heartening. Yeah. Um, and so you know, it's it's again that compromise of um, do you want someone who does all of the work for you, all of that social marketing and production? Uh, and therefore you give up your, you know, um, autonomy and uh opportunities made they have to sort of do all of that or the other side of it.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 27:08

So yeah, I mean, look, these days you don't have to sign world rights, but usually it's expected with um Puncher and Watman, they have my Australian New Zealand rights and I and outside the Brox Press has the European rights. Wonderful. You know, I mean, yeah, that wasn't something that they they wanted at the start, but that's something that that's what's it's resulted in because it it just wasn't feasible if I'm touring so much to have to get books from Puncher and Watman shipped from Australia to Europe when I can just print them in Europe, like I said before. Um, but also that you know, I I would I would caution um you know new writers as well to when they they are gonna sign with a publisher, really ask what kind of marketing budget are they gonna actually um you know put put forward for your book? Because, you know, with Puncher and Wottman, for example, there really wasn't, you know, a budget, you know, and um, but with bigger publishers, there there is a budget, you know. So there's also all that to weigh up. I mean, I wanted to be published with a publisher because that's something I wanted to experience. I'd never done it before. So um, you know, and and it's turned out okay. You know, there's been some pros and some cons, but I don't regret it. So um, you know, but um, yeah, definitely be looking at the the marketing because a lot of publishers these days, they don't even have proper distribution, even. They won't even get your book in a bookshop. So if you're looking at a publisher, you need to go, okay, are there books at my local bookshop? You know, and and what kind of distribution do they have? What kind of marketing do they have? But then when you ask those questions, when you get to the point of getting published, it's almost seen as like disrespectful, like this. How dare you ask for that or this? You know, you should be thankful which is you from a slush pile of 200 books and this and that. And it shouldn't be that way, you know.

Amra Pajalic: 29:02

It should be near it as a partnership, yeah. But uh, because I had that experience too when I tried to negotiate. Yeah. Um and uh, you know, uh we're we're cut out so much in one way where it's like, well, it should be a partnership, yeah. Because at the end of the day, everything that we're doing, it's about promoting, it's about creating opportunities. Um, but it's almost like uh yeah, you've just got spotlight for six weeks, moving on, um, and whatever they control. Equal guy, I remember I'm not gonna say the author's name, but they got published with a traditional publisher.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 29:35

A big one, like a big one, yeah.

Amra Pajalic: 29:37

Yeah, uh one of the five. And they were doing promotion and all of this. And then the um publisher got their nose put bent out of joint about their promotion efforts and what they were doing. And they were like, This author is um out of bounds in their promotion.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 29:56

No, wait, I've never heard of that before.

Amra Pajalic: 29:58

It was it was really

Koraly Dimitriadis: 30:00

Really um so they had to do the promotion like how the publisher wanted them to do it.

Amra Pajalic: 30:05

You know, there was something about the publisher not being happy, about what they were doing and the ways that they were promoting. And so it does, it does limit I I didn't know that they definitely wouldn't be happy before. I if I could do an episode one day of all of the dark stories I know. Oh, me too. The little little dark nooks and and you know, because there is a lot that goes on. I mean, I think it's in every industry, like even as a teacher, yeah, you know, there's there's the dark side of it all um that you kind of just look away from because you're like, we can't we can't look there. Yeah. Um, but can you talk about some of the um promotion and marketing uh that you've been doing and like what what things have you found the most accessible? Because even recently you've been submitting to book prizes um and you won book prizes, which which has been, you know, creating more opportunities for you.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 30:56

Yeah, I mean, with book prizes, um it's a bit of a hit and miss. Like I don't really submit that much to prizes unless I think there's a chance. Like I always look at what kind of books get chosen. And if it's a very literary kind of list and nothing really edgy, I don't even submit. Or if the judges are very literary, you know, I don't submit. So um, but with American Book Fests, which is where I've had some luck, and then UK Poetry Book Awards, I could see that they were, you know, choosing people that were a bit left of center, so that's why I submit it there. Um, I've I found like uh social media very helpful. Like I said before, sometimes I work with publicists, but also just um touring, you know, and leaving Australia, which I know it's not easy for a lot of people to do, but I've been lucky because I'm a dual citizen. I get funding from the Cypriot government to do a lot of my touring. Like they've funded me to go to New Zealand, to America, around Europe, to Cyprus. So um, and that's been that support has been absolutely pivotal to my success because of that thing I told you about before about how the Australian establishment views you more highly if you're kicking goals overseas. And so, you know, um the way that that Cyprus funding um is awarded is is a bit more lax, I would say, and a bit more like not as bureaucratic. Like if you look at the funding um guidelines here for you know Creative Australia and um Creative Victoria, you know, for someone that doesn't have that bureaucratic kind of head, it's so it's almost impossible to get funding. Those regulations are hard.

Amra Pajalic: 32:52

Yeah, it's like you have to start very early on preparing the information, collecting, justifying, writing, and then the word count.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 33:02

Yeah, it it's it's it's just very inaccessible. And also the way that it's um the funding is treason, I don't I don't think is is very fair, like that it's peer-based, because then if the the pe people on the board you know don't like you, then you're not gonna get the funding. Whereas in in Cyprus, that it's not just peer-based, there's actually people from the office that are sitting there as well. And um, yeah, I just I've had more luck. I've had more luck overseas, so I've just been able to just use that to my advantage to really lift my profile um and just you know perform at events around Europe and things like that. And I was recently in Berlin, I'd never performed in Berlin before, and I got such a like warm reception, just talking about all this stuff that we're talking about right now. They were just so fascinated because there's this perception in Europe that Australia is this like like very like you know, liberated, you know, artistic, you know, space, you know, and like this it's just not like no, it's more conservative than it is here, you know. And um, I remember one day I said I said to someone in Cyprus, oh, I'm gonna write a poem about it was something in the media. I'm gonna write a poem about this and put it out there. What do you think? And then they were like, Why are you even asking me this question? Isn't it your job to do that? And I said, No, but if I said something like that in Australia, I would get, you know, blacklisted or whatever. And they're like, that's so weird. Why would you get blacklisted? Like, they don't even understand when you talk about this stuff. They don't get it. Um, so yeah, just to answer your question, yeah, uh, it's it's I I the way that I promote my work is very um creatively driven. So it's like what feels right for me right now. Um, and and I and I just go with that because there's so many different ways a person can can promote their work.

Amra Pajalic: 35:05

And that's the thing, that's that's what's been fascinating about being in this world now and seeing the ways that people are creating their own successes and creating their own paths. Can you talk through some lessons and logistics about touring and how, and um, you know, in terms of advice or things that have happened? Um, like do you come up with um or you look at events that you can go to? How how do you yeah?

Koraly Dimitriadis: 35:31

I just I just kind of um in in the same way that I mentioned before about the prizes, like I, you know, I'll try and source events that would program people like me. Like I don't really approach places where I don't think they're gonna accept me because I don't want to waste my time. So yeah, there's a little bit of research that goes into it, and also people that I know come to me and say to me, Oh, you should apply to this, because I think you'd be really great there. So, you know, I do take on people's feedback in that way as well. Um, and yeah, if someone gave me a bit of advice um recently that I thought was good, don't uh it was like don't try and force yourself into spaces that you know won't appreciate you.

Amra Pajalic: 36:22

Yes.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 36:23

And I think that has been a harder lesson for me to learn because I've always been like, well, why? Why can't I get there? And why can't I be in that literary festival? And why, why, why? And then when that person said that to me, I was like, yeah, I know I'm not gonna be appreciated, so why do I even try? Yes, you know, like when I tell people overseas, you know, oh, like my poetry is like best selling for the poetry genre in Australia, and I've never been invited to Melbourne Writers Festival. Yeah, you know, or like I've I've never been invited to any of like writers' festivals, you know.

Amra Pajalic: 36:58

A lot of those festivals are by publishers, the known publishers for, you know, creating um where they invite you. So I've been on some of those festivals when I've been published with, you know, traditional publishing. I've got one festival coming up which is based on who I knew. And you know, so there is a lot of that where it's like people that you know and people that you've created networks with, um, and that you, you know, generate that through. Yeah. Um, but also like what you were saying in terms of researching, like even if you are wanting to traditionally publish, you need to research the agent, or you can know even if the agent or the editor or what they've published. So it's the same thing in the indie world. There is a lot of that background background stuff that you have to do. Yeah.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 37:42

And I've also done stuff like, I mean, it doesn't exist anymore, but Sexpo. I used to do sex bow where it would just be like um, you know, loads of like booths about sex, and then you know, there was only me and this one other writer that was selling out books there, you know, and and I got a lot of books sold, a lot of email addresses, you know, I've had a mailing list and stuff. Um, and just doing like book fairs or markets I've done sometimes, places where, you know, people that I people that I know would be interested in my work go to, you know, just thinking outside the box. We don't have to market our books the way, you know, the publishers do. We can actually come up with creative ways. I mean, even once I was selling my books, I don't anymore in like a fashion store that, you know, had a lot of like say Greek women that I knew went there, or you know, just trying different things and seeing what works and what doesn't. Because sometimes, you know, you could put your book in like a certain gift store that you know that people that, you know, would like your book go to and you can try it out and see how it goes. And, you know, it could do really well. It could flop. I guess one of the things you have to do is try things out and don't be, don't take it to heart if it doesn't work out. Because a lot of the times people look at me and go, oh, she's so successful and whatever. But they don't see that, you know, for every success, there's probably like, you know, 10 to 20 like flops is what I call them. Like I don't call them failures anymore because I see those as stepping stones to me having my success. And the way you talk to yourself as a writer that is um doing that is kind of self-made, is really important because the industry has its voice that can tell you, oh, look at her. She's just you know doing blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and she, you know, and just frowning on you for the way you're doing it. And it's easy to take on that voice. But when I started saying to myself, no, don't take on that voice, that's the that's the establishment's voice. Your voice should be like, it's great that you tried that and it didn't work out. Try this, maybe, you know, try that, you know. And it's so interesting as well, because my novel that I was talking to you about before that has been rejected from, you know, every publisher in Australia, right? Um, and I know it's gonna get published one day. I just know I don't and I know it why it hasn't, because it's really controversial. But when I was in Cyprus recently, I was having discussions with producers and the Cypriot funding bodies about changing this novel that has never been published into a film. And it's like I I was sitting there going, how is this possible? Or even like when I was in London talking to a London theatre about my theatre show, and I can't even get it staged here. Yeah. You know, and there's interest. And I just go, wow, like it's so interesting that I can't have that support here, and I have to go like abroad to get it.

Amra Pajalic: 40:40

No, I've heard your story before from a traditionally published author who was entering the film scene, and she was saying the same thing. We started, you know, getting things adapted and scripts, and she's like, it's so much more collaborative, it's so much more open to ideas, um, it's it's a lot more like things can happen. And she was finding exactly the same thing, which is you know very different. And I don't know, is it is it the fact that, you know, as writers, it's all about that solitary pursuit, and therefore, but then again, to in the publishing industry, and you know, even for us getting our own books produced and published and printed, there is a lot of um involvement and a lot of people, and we create our own ecosystem in terms of editors and you know, I've done audiobooks and narrators, and you've done movies, and so you know, people are doing um the film production, and you know, so there is an industry that we're creating and that we're participating in, um, but somehow it does feel a little bit more uh boxed.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 41:45

Yeah, no, I just I think when you think more more broadly that you are an artist in your own right and you can do whatever you want and collaborate with whoever you want. And it doesn't have to be through that that Australian literary canon. You can you can dabble in there, sure, dabble in there if you want. And that's and that's great. It's good to have some collaboration there as well, but you are a free agent, and that that is what an artist is. An artist, which is what I learn a lot when I go to Cyberpress, when people tell me, but that's you're an artist, it's your job. It's your job to question, it's a job. And it's like, oh no, not in Australia, it's not my job. It's my job to be a good literary citizen. That's my job, you know. And and when you start thinking in that more broader way, that yeah, actually, it is my job to question. It is my job to conduct myself as an artist in in a way that feels comfortable for me creatively. It like almost like your creativity dictates where you go, who you collaborate with. Yes. And and being empowered in that approach of what feels right for me as an artist and as a human, then you start saying then you don't have to box yourself in.

Amra Pajalic: 43:00

Yes, you know, and I have to say that's what's been happening for me since I've entered the indie world and I've started just creating things and releasing them. And I get these ideas where I'm like, you know, that the first instinct is, who am I to think that I can do this? That's the establishment of it. And so then I have to go through and go, but then it almost um, the more that you do it, it almost becomes a force within you. Yes. Where it's like, no, this is the the voice of you know truth, of I have something to say, I want to create this, I want to put it out there. Um, and then even I have conversations, you know, with people who are outside and who are not artists, and they're like, but why? What are you gonna get out of it? Is it going to earn you an income? Is it going to and I'm like, I don't know. I just need to do it. I just believe in it. I just feel that this is something I have to do and put out there into the world. And what I love is that the more that I am listening to my voice, the more that I am following my ideas, my muse, um, my passion, the easier it is because that first it's fighting yourself. It's fighting all of the voices of the people out there. And then the more that you release things and the more that you also like talk about things to people, where you just have conversations, or I'm doing this thing, I'm doing this project. Think of this podcast, I started it for a purpose, which is to get ones on the board to do a history podcast that I want to do to showcase the research for my PhD and the background research for my book. Um, and then you know, now I'm I talk to people and they have interesting stories, and I'm like, you know, podcast and just kind of organically evolves, and it's not so much work. But the more that you censor yourself and the more that you close yourself off, the harder it is to be able to do that. The more, you know, like I'm I'm finding such freedom and joy. It's some of those things that you were talking about about going to bookstores and the way that you've got your books in your bookstores. I I haven't been able to do that. That's still something that I have not been able to kind of like, oh, I can do that. So I've still got some internal resistance to certain things, but I'm building that muscle, I'm building that resilience. So it's like you're fighting yourself and then eventually.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 45:32

Well, that's great. I mean, I would say that it's like when we come into the industry, it's like we get indoctrinated to think in a certain way, and we have to unlearn that thinking. Yes, you know, I agree. And it's really great seeing like your journey, because you know, when I met you, you were like just traditionally published and that, and then you told me you're gonna open your own press, and you know, and and you know, you said that I'd inspired you. You know, actually a lot of people say, Oh, you inspire me to do this. It's a lot of pressure sometimes. No, but the thing is, you're not you're not doing that for anyone but yourself.

Amra Pajalic: 46:07

And what I have seen with you that is the bigger inspiration is this just the joy of creation. Yeah. Because you know, if we go back to success, what is success? Yes, is success money? Is it earning an income from your writing? Is success producing what you believe in and just putting it out there? What is success? And I think for both of us, we are arriving at that point where success is being true to ourselves, creating, and just putting it.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 46:38

Yeah, and also like a writer once told me something which has always stuck with me, which is separating your money from your art. It gives you so much more creative control. And I think when they say success is about, well, artistic success is supposed to be when you're making your money from your art. But I think that needs to be shifted a bit. It should be you're successful when you can make the art you want to make and you're making a living at the same time. Now, where that living is coming from could be coming from an investment property, could be coming from, you know, like teaching a couple of days a week. But as long as you're doing what you what you want to do creatively, yes, who cares where your money comes from?

Amra Pajalic: 47:22

Yes, you know and I agree with that because I'm a teacher and that is the living part of it. And then that creates that space where I don't have to rely on on trying to make my art um commercially viable. Yes. My art can just be what it needs to be. Yes. Yeah. Oh, wonderful. Well, thank you so much. I've been wanting to talk to you, just get some of your perspective and get your lessons. Um, just everything that you said, I I feel like I am slowly evolving. Um, but you you have been like this this champion um who has done it all herself and who has just blazed this path. So I want to thank you for that. But I just want to thank you also just for being so generous where where we have been reaching out to each other and sharing and just helping. Um, and it's just so wonderful to have someone with that. Um, and even we're we're doing some events together, aren't we? We're doing oh yes, Australia Book Fair. Yeah, the Australian Book Fair, we're gonna be there together. I'm gonna be together in January and and uh we're looking maybe at doing clumes together or maybe yes. What we need to see. So um I'm really excited about those opportunities too, because that's something else that I've wanted to do that I've been really struggling with. So I'm gonna have you to usher me into it.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 48:46

Yeah, no, it's great. The the book fair world is is definitely something that um self-made authors should definitely tap into. Yeah, because you're definitely selling directly to the um the consumer rather than relying on like a book festival or a bookshop to sell your work. And it can also be really rewarding because you're actually having conversations with the people that are buying your work. Yes, you know, and that is something that we don't get when we're selling, you know, at a at a bookshop, for example, you know. So yeah, no, it's definitely something that I I enjoy doing.

Amra Pajalic: 49:21

I love how you um are able to like spin everything in a positive way. Because like for me, I'm like, oh my gosh, being out there and talking to people.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 49:29

Well, it's so interesting because a lot of the time with these book fairs and that, you get authors that are like, you know, coming up to me and they're like, oh, you know, I'm not selling, you know. And and I just say that's okay, because you know, you're even like if you're not selling, the fact that you're there and that people they might walk past your table and see your book and they might pick it up and not buy it, right? But they might pick it up and buy it the next time they see it, you know. And so every time people always come to me complaining, I'm like, it's okay. The fact that you're here and that you're marketing your work and you're talking to your audience, your potential audience, that is still, it's still marketing. Like people pay money for publicists and all that, but you're there doing the groundwork. I see myself as a grassroots um writer. I don't see myself as like, oh, you know, I've made it and I'm too snobby to go to this or that. Or I don't see myself that way. And I know the establishment might go, oh, well, look at her. She has to go to a book fair to sell her books. And I and I just say, well, who, why do you care so much how I'm selling my book? Are you selling books? How much do you pay to sell your books? How much do you pay your publicists to sell your books? Yeah, you know, and you're frowning at me, you know. And even I just want to say one thing about the Bendigo Writers Festival. And I know that, you know, a lot of people actually, you know, pulled out of that festival, and that's fine. They have their every right to do that. But the idea that the ones that didn't pull out pull out are somehow bad writers, I don't agree with that. And I know that some of the writers that didn't pull out were were crucified online, and and I don't agree with that at all. I I I I support writers in whatever they want to do, and to actually get a spot at the Bendigo Writers Festival, I've never been invited. You know, so to actually have that spot is is a is a privilege in itself. To be able to pull out is also a privilege as well. So I don't agree with any kind of conduct that crucifies people that that didn't that didn't that didn't pull out as their choice, yeah, you know, to to do that or not. And I just I just want to add that, you know, I I don't frown at people whether they pulled out or not pulled out, you know. And that's what artistic freedom is.

Amra Pajalic: 51:53

That's what it should be. You stand, you know, you have to make decisions for yourself, yes, in terms of what is right for you at that time, and it's not for other people to sit there questioning, deciding, judging. Um or blacklisting, which is what happens. Yeah, and I think um social media is not a place for nuance.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 52:12

Yes.

Amra Pajalic: 52:12

You know, it it is something that benefits us and we enjoy it, and we know um that we, you know, it works in in um terms of promoting our work and promoting ourselves, but um there's no nuance, yeah, and there is a lot of um nastiness.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 52:31

Yeah, there can be yeah, and I've experienced a lot of nastiness on online in my career, and I and I didn't deserve it. Yeah, you know, and neither do one deserves. No one deserves that, yeah.

Amra Pajalic: 52:42

Yeah, um, but it does, it does like I do know what you're because I do think about what I'm going to weed into, what I'm going to post. Yes. Um, and then for me there's another layer which is as a teacher. Yes, of for sure for young adults. So there's there's that part of it also, but um, you know, it is also a joy. Yes. Uh I do like social media and I do like like I do connect with people on social media and create friendships and you know collaborations. Yeah.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 53:10

So yeah, that's I I I think I think that being an artist and a writer is is a very hard profession. Yes. I've worked in IT and I've gone and I've I've worked and I've got my paycheck and I've gone home. And no, it's not hard. This is hard.

Amra Pajalic: 53:25

Yeah.

Koraly Dimitriadis: 53:25

This is hard. It's very hard on so many different levels to be an artist. And I, you know, I hope people understand that that it is very difficult. It's a very difficult profession. And actually, a writer I admire once said to me, if it was easy, everyone would do it. And so when I'm having those hard days, I've always think that, well, if it was easy, everyone would do it, and I'm doing it, and I should be proud of the fact that I'm doing it.

Amra Pajalic: 53:50

Well, that's for me, my success has been that I have achieved longevity. That's 20 years of, you know, trying, actually, 28 years probably, of, you know, publishing and and working at it, I'm still doing it. But having said that, I have no choice. It is my oxygen. Yes, me too, yeah. Yeah, and so that's the other thing about being an artist. You can't not do it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Coralie. Um, I hope you've enjoyed this chat and you can connect with Coralie online and check out her work. She is amazing. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you for tuning into Amra's armchair anecdotes. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe and follow for more insights, stories, and inspiration. From my armchair to yours, remember every story begins with a single word.